PDA

View Full Version : These verbs are driving me MENTAL!!!



Marrissey
March 5th, 2009, 14:50
So - I'm struggling by trying to finish Book 1 of the Intermediate CLAIR Course with my non-existent Japanese. Anyway - the various verb endings are driving me bloody insane. I'm crap at conjugating Japanese verbs but I can just about cope with that - what's really getting me is all the different words and stuff you can put after a verb to change it's meaning - and how those change depending on the tense and whether the verb is negative - I'm talking about things like:

taberu tame ni
tabetta koto ga arimasu
tabteru koto ga arimasu
taberu koto ga
taberun desu ka
taberu houga ii desu
tabetta mono da

etc.
etc.

Someone please tell me there's a website that has very clearly laid out all the ways a Japanese verb can be altered to change the meaning? Preferably before I go (any more) mad.

AliDimayev
March 5th, 2009, 14:53
I highly reccomend those yellow, blue, red grammar dicitnaries. and just learn one by one and don't move on to the next until you have firm grasp

Sorccy
March 5th, 2009, 15:04
http://www.timwerx.net/language/jpverbs/index.htm#contents

This site has some, but maybe not quite all of the endings you're talking about. And many, many others. On the one hand, I love this site, and on the other it makes me certain that I'm never going to understand this language. lol.

I hope it's a bit helpful!

kamukamuume
March 5th, 2009, 15:08
I tend to like http://www.guidetojapanese.org

The guy who writes the material for that site is seriously amazing, and I used it so much when I was studying basic Japanese. I should probably go back and learn some more casual nuances and stuff.

Also, I second the recommendation for that timwerx site. Good stuff.

Marrissey
March 5th, 2009, 15:14
Thanks for the links - they are helpful. The one that's really troubling me at the moment is an ending like

わすれたの
or
言うのだ

What does that の do? I presume all the CLAIR Course answers are things that could be grammatically possible, right?

AliDimayev
March 5th, 2009, 15:16
It has serveral nuances one is 'offering of the explanation"

WHERE IS YOUR BOOK?

WASURTA NO DESU.

Ses
March 5th, 2009, 15:18
I absolutely 100% recommend "Japanese Verbs & Essentials of Grammar" by Rita Lampkin. I always struggled with verbs until I had a break through with this little book and now I have a new appreciation for verb endings :) . Slight downside is it uses romaji.

kamukamuume
March 5th, 2009, 15:38
Thanks for the links - they are helpful. The one that's really troubling me at the moment is an ending like

わすれたの
or
言うのだ

What does that の do? I presume all the CLAIR Course answers are things that could be grammatically possible, right?

The first one is tagged onto the end of sentences by girls, and a lot of the time it doesn't seem to have much significance meaning-wise; it just kind of softens the tone of their speech. Also, it's used by guys and girls when asking questions in a more casual setting. You can just plop it onto the end of a sentence (after a verb in short form) for either of those functions.

As Ali said, the のだ/のです thing tends to carry an explanatory nuance. I think of it as being like "it's that." 雨がふっています is like "it's raining," and 雨がふっているん(の)です is like "it's that it's raining." And in English, you might use the latter to explain why you're all wet, or why you were late for an appointment. Something like that. Hope that makes sense.

kawaii_candie
March 5th, 2009, 16:03
yeah... also, may i suggest throwing your CLAIR book out the window? i gave up after the first one. that book is shit and really hard to understand :(

viktorvaughn
March 5th, 2009, 16:04
So - I'm struggling by trying to finish Book 1 of the Intermediate CLAIR Course with my non-existent Japanese. Anyway - the various verb endings are driving me bloody insane. I'm crap at conjugating Japanese verbs but I can just about cope with that - what's really getting me is all the different words and stuff you can put after a verb to change it's meaning - and how those change depending on the tense and whether the verb is negative - I'm talking about things like:

taberu tame ni
tabetta koto ga arimasu
tabteru koto ga arimasu
taberu koto ga
taberun desu ka
taberu houga ii desu
tabetta mono da

etc.
etc.

Someone please tell me there's a website that has very clearly laid out all the ways a Japanese verb can be altered to change the meaning? Preferably before I go (any more) mad.

well ive only taken up to jap. 3 but

taberu tame ni - dunno
tabetta koto ga arimasu - past tense of eat, ate. i dont think this makes sense or i never learned it or its a phrase.
tabteru koto ga arimasu - have had the experiece of eating before.
taberu koto ga - need to finish it with a verb or something like dekimasu
taberun desu ka - dunno
taberu houga ii desu - eating is better than something, you have to compare it to something

im probably wrong tho
tabetta mono da

ampersand
March 5th, 2009, 16:06
what's really getting me is all the different words and stuff you can put after a verb to change it's meaning - and how those change depending on the tense and whether the verb is negative - I'm talking about things like:Then stop thinking of them as things you add to the verb to change its meaning. They're separate words that the verb is modifying. Though literally translating them that way makes for really awkward English, their meanings in use make a lot more sense.

(And the perfective of taberu it tabeta.)

AliDimayev
March 5th, 2009, 16:14
well ive only taken up to jap. 3 but

taberu tame ni - in order to eat
tabetta koto ga arimasu - I have eaten
akes sense or i never learned it or its a phrase.
tabteru koto ga arimasu - sometimes eat.
taberu koto ga - need to finish it with a verb or something like dekimasu

im probably wrong tho
tabetta mono da

yeah, you are wrong.

ampersand
March 5th, 2009, 16:20
taberu tame ni - dunnoTame is purpose, sake, result, etc. Taberu tame ni would be for the purpose of eating or in order to eat.

tabetta koto ga arimasu - past tense of eat, ate. i dont think this makes sense or i never learned it or its a phrase.This is a very common construction. It means that [subject] has eaten, in the sense of having that experience.

tabteru koto ga arimasu - have had the experiece of eating before.Bzzz. This means that you currently have the experience of eating: that you sometimes eat.

taberu koto ga - need to finish it with a verb or something like dekimasuTaberu koto means the fact, matter, experience, etc. of eating.

taberun desu ka - dunnoThe same as, and the common spoken form of, taberu no desu ka. "Is it that [subject] eats?"

taberu houga ii desu - eating is better than something, you have to compare it to somethingYup. If the verb is in the perfective, tabeta hou da ii (desu), it becomes advice: [subject] should eat. Literally, it's something like "The option of having eaten is good/better."

tabetta mono daMono means "thing" and can be used as a general nominalizer like no or koto can, though the nuance is slightly different. It can also just mean "thing" as in "the thing that something ate."

ohheythere
March 5th, 2009, 16:31
amperstand, all explanations are great except for the last one (which, technically, is also correct, but is more commonly used as follows):

The expression "mono da" after the simple past form of a verb is a colloquial version of "mono desu". This construction indicates surprise, i.e. "I ate that!" or "I can't believe I ate!" or "I ate that?!"

Hope that helps! (and hope it's right!)

AliDimayev
March 5th, 2009, 16:36
~mono da can mean a few things.

1. a culturallay normal thing to do (shogatsu, mochi wo taberu mono da)
2. something you did commonloy as child
3. I forgotted

ohheythere
March 5th, 2009, 16:39
Good call, Ali!

As with most Japanese verb/sentence endings, lots of nuance is possible and inevitable.

AliDimayev
March 5th, 2009, 16:40
I know there is a third common use, but I forget!

ohheythere
March 5th, 2009, 16:45
HeckifIknow, too. ::shrugs::

kamukamuume
March 9th, 2009, 08:45
Ali, isn't the third one giving an excuse or a reason? Like if someone had eaten 10 cookies and you're giving them a hard time about it, they could be like だっておいしいもん(もの)

AliDimayev
March 9th, 2009, 09:36
I think you are right!

vdog
March 9th, 2009, 15:44
Then stop thinking of them as things you add to the verb to change its meaning. They're separate words that the verb is modifying. Though literally translating them that way makes for really awkward English, their meanings in use make a lot more sense.

(And the perfective of taberu it tabeta.)

Well, that's exactly what I was going to say. You can tell we both used JSL :lol: