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Wakatta
March 8th, 2009, 08:47
Flaghag says he does. What about you?

Do you gloss new words in katakana? I'm excluding things like writing katakana to give a rough guide and then refining it: I'm talking about basically targeting "kyatto" and treating "kyatto" responses as correct, rather than saying. "Ah, no, 'cat'" and having them repeat it back correctly.

Vote yes if you never teach pronunciation and consider any such attempts utterly futile.

Vote no if you do teach correct pronunciation, and usually correct egregious mistakes (kyatto, naito).

AliDimayev
March 8th, 2009, 08:49
I tell my students, let's pronounce Japanese words American style;
futon
honcho
karaoke
and so on

Wakatta
March 8th, 2009, 08:56
I tell my students, let's pronounce Japanese words American style;
futon
honcho
karaoke
and so on

Don't forget sake and karate.

Every now and then, when I do something like this to show them how important correct pronunciation is, I enjoy asking kids, "Do you like carry-oh-kee?" Blank stares. "Do you like carry-oh-kee? I like carry-oh-kee! Carry-oh-kee is fun!" Blank stares. Then I do it again with the Japanese pronunciation, and they're usually, "EEEEEHHH?" Then I say that's exactly what "WAN HOTTO DOGGU PURIIZU" sounds like to English-speakers.

Sometimes, writing both the word and the Japanese version works, too. I write both in romaji, just to make the lineup clearer:

hot dog
hotto doggu

And then I point out all those extra sounds. With that one, you can also note that a short "o" is mostly quite similar to an ア and very unlike an オ.

AliDimayev
March 8th, 2009, 08:57
oh right. that list was no exhaustive

ampersand
March 8th, 2009, 08:59
Egads, no. I chide my students if they write furigana, whether it gets them to a more correct pronunciation or not.

Tomahawk
March 8th, 2009, 11:31
Never write it or use it. I use the example of my name to emphasize to differences.

AliDimayev
March 8th, 2009, 11:33
What your name is?

Tomahawk
March 8th, 2009, 13:51
...

patjs
March 8th, 2009, 21:12
Hell no. I don't get a lot of control (meaning I have to cringe while my JTE's encourage and use it) but I never praise or encourage katakana use.

The two private eikaiwa gigs I do I make it a point to tell them that katakana is not English and if you order a "cohee" no one will know what the fuck you are talking about.

The 5nen elementary kid is pretty amazing at getting his pronunciation right too.

Wakatta
March 8th, 2009, 22:03
I've never really seen my JTEs use it...well, okay, once or twice. Like at one point, someone was like, "so for plurals, you add a ズ" and I had to go over and be like, "Actually, it's just a 'z' sound."

I don't know what kind of dynamics most people have, but I have never gotten flak for interrupting to explain something or co-opt the class. We trade back and forth pretty freely. When a JTE makes a mistake, I do try to just kind of subtly tell them, so as not to embarrass them. (They're not willfully negligent, but they do make mistakes sometimes.)

AliDimayev
March 8th, 2009, 22:06
ONe thing that kills me is when some of my students are speaking and they are thinking of the next word to say so they draw out some words, but then they butcher the pronounciation:

example.

"He izzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzu'

I just keep thinking, please you are holding the Z sound so long, just drop it! No need to add that 'u' sound!

wicket
March 8th, 2009, 22:10
No, and I don't use romaji when I teach Japanese, either. Straight into the kanas and the kids cope just fine - better, I believe, than if they were being asked to pronounce the sounds of one language using the unsuitable syllabary or alphabet of another.

AliDimayev
March 8th, 2009, 22:19
No, and I don't use romaji when I teach Japanese, either. Straight into the kanas and the kids cope just fine - better, I believe, than if they were being asked to pronounce the sounds of one language using the unsuitable syllabary or alphabet of another.


Well, the roman alphabet is perfectly capable of representing Japanese sounds, you just have to know the rules of the transliteration.

wicket
March 8th, 2009, 22:23
Oh really? Explain to me how the Roman alphabet (as used by a native English speaker) can transliterate ふ then? That sound doesn't exist in English and if it exists in another language that uses the Roman alphabet then that's not especially useful unless the person you're teaching Japanese to also speaks that other language.

AliDimayev
March 8th, 2009, 22:29
Well, right, but you have to be taught how to pronounce it. So you can write it "FU".
The problem is there is not enough variation for kana to represent every sound in English.

AliDimayev
March 8th, 2009, 22:29
By the wya, I agree. Use kana from the getgo.

wicket
March 8th, 2009, 22:38
Well, right, but you have to be taught how to pronounce it. So you can write it "FU".
The problem is there is not enough variation for kana to represent every sound in English.
Well, that's just the same as saying as long as a kid is taught that "CAT" is pronounced "CAT" it's okay to transliterate it as キャト, which is rubbish.

I don't think ふ should be written as "fu" or "hu" when we all know it's pronounced as neither.

AliDimayev
March 8th, 2009, 22:40
Well, yes and no. If ト is said to represent T, then ok.But what happens if you want to transliterate an english word that starts with a ’to’ sound.  Like ”toe”?

kamukamuume
March 9th, 2009, 08:20
I guess it depends on the level of the kids. I have some classes where the kids do their best with pronunciation and the JTEs will go with me if I want to make a point about it.

I have another class (low level 1st year SHS, pretty much the most discouraging class on this island of noodle slurpers; the JTE outright dismisses my input) where the kids are handed everything. Their assignments involve copying things down verbatim from the blackboard, or if they slept through that session, then from a friend's paper.

If they have to write a speech, then they copy down example sentences I've been asked to write for them. Then I have to go around and pretty much write each person's speech for them because they have no idea what the English means, and there's too much material to cover for me to worry about actually "teaching" anything. So in that situation, when my JTE has made a katakana chart for them to transcribe words they can't pronounce, I just go with it.

If the students are at a level where they're having English shoved down their throats and aren't given the tools to make sense of it, pronunciation is just another detail that would muddle everything up. It's an important part of learning English (I strongly agree with wakatta's point about "WAN HOTTO DOGGU PURIIZU" making no sense to the average English speaker), but a good deal of classes ALTs take part in are almost completely divorced from English as a communicative language.

You have to pick your battles.

ampersand
March 9th, 2009, 09:38
I don't think ふ should be written as "fu" or "hu" when we all know it's pronounced as neither.That's a daft as claiming that French shouldn't written in the Latin alphabet because it's pronounced differently than English. After all "impossible" isn't pronounced as "impossible".

You can accurately represent the pronunciation of Japanese in the Latin alphabet (better than English, even) as long as you are aware that it's not pronounced the same as English (or French or Swedish or . . . ).

The problem with representing English (and many other languages) in katakana is that you can't distinguish several consonants, that you can't represent consonant clusters, and that you can't represent closed syllables that end in anything except n without enormous amounts of modification.

AliDimayev
March 9th, 2009, 10:42
That's a daft as claiming that French shouldn't written in the Latin alphabet because it's pronounced differently than English. After all "impossible" isn't pronounced as "impossible".

You can accurately represent the pronunciation of Japanese in the Latin alphabet (better than English, even) as long as you are aware that it's not pronounced the same as English (or French or Swedish or . . . ).

The problem with representing English (and many other languages) in katakana is that you can't distinguish several consonants, that you can't represent consonant clusters, and that you can't represent closed syllables that end in anything except n without enormous amounts of modification.
Thank you for saying what I was thinking!

Tomahawk
March 9th, 2009, 14:18
Exactly Ampersand.
I can understand teaching the correct pronunciation and the students not being able to pronounce it....but to deliberately teach the wrong pronunciation is a backwards step and will in later life lead to the students being ridiculed for their pronounciation. I think it will actually hinder them in later life and discourage them from speaking English as they will stand out from the crowd.

katsudon
March 9th, 2009, 15:18
I had a discussion with my (first year JHS) JTE to try to get him to remove the katakana from the worksheet. He used the slow kids excuse. I said they could write their own if they needed the help. He used the slow kids excuse. I asked him if they were so slow they couldn't write their own katakana. He used the slow kids excuse.

OMFG I give up.

Mr. Plainview
March 9th, 2009, 19:53
fuck, if i don't put it in katakana neither my students nor the JTEs will know what i'm talking about. My school's retarded. I have to teach them like retards.

You know what, I take that back. The teachers are retarded. the students just have bad teachers. the JTEs don't give a fuck about teaching english. I've decided, if you can't beat them, join them. now i'm part of the problem.

i'm guessing me and ini have similar schools

AliDimayev
March 9th, 2009, 19:53
Is your school really that bad?

Mr. Plainview
March 9th, 2009, 19:57
p.s., im thinking about purposely teaching the kids and JTEs wrong so their English will be even more fucked up and unintelligible than before. That way i can exercise a little power in my powerless world and make them look stupid.

petty? yes.

what i'm going to do? yes.

Mr. Plainview
March 9th, 2009, 20:00
Is your school really that bad?

let me put it this way. Those fuckers are just there to collect government checks. They can't speak English and refuse to teach it.

When I first got here I tried to make an impact, came up against a brick wall, and now i spend my time on the internet talking about feces and semen. There is no reason for my school to have an ALT, not until they decide to teach english.

AliDimayev
March 9th, 2009, 20:05
I was going to say that that is unfortunate, but maybe, in the end, it's easier. My problem at my school, with one of my JTEs anyway, is that she is a pushover. She is way too nice to the students. This wouldn't be a problem if the students actually behaved, but the students are horrible. And the nicer she is to them, the more they just walk all over her.

Mr. Plainview
March 9th, 2009, 20:09
i have to restrain myself because it would become an essay, but yeah, i have that problem too. i have most of the problems i've ever heard of. CLAIR should do a study on my school, write up a report, and then fuck themselves in the ass with it.

DecayConstant
March 11th, 2009, 19:03
I casually suggestted actually teaching the students how to read, rather than having them memorize whole words as if they were kanji. She said, "Oh, we don't have time for that, and no one ever taught us how to read either." Well, if you taught them how to read, you wouldn't have to waste twenty minutes every period repeating the same paragraph 15 times until half the class has it memorized and the other half is in a boredom-coma.

But my school is actually pretty good, all things considered.

violetessence
March 12th, 2009, 14:28
I teach senior high school, primarily 2nd & 3rd years. The JTEs and I don't write in katakana, but some kids will write their own on their textbooks for new words. I don't scold them for that if they need it. I teach phrases and dialogs, so we're not doing individual word pronunciation drills. Most students are pretty good at reading and sounding out new words, though of course they have accents to varying degrees. I do try to get the class as a whole to pronounce things correctly. Most of them sound pretty intelligible, but there are still some that pronounce everything like katakana, even though they're reading English letters. If they haven't gotten it by now, I don't think they're going to (or want to), so I don't pick on students individually for their pronunciation.

Interestingly, even though my students may be able to pronounce words like "T-junction" correctly, they still say "kyatto" instead of "cat." I blame it on learning the word in Elementary (or wherever) from someone who didn't speak English.

patjs
March 13th, 2009, 17:09
fuck, if i don't put it in katakana neither my students nor the JTEs will know what i'm talking about. My school's retarded. I have to teach them like retards.


That's a good point... these kids have been conditioned to listen to shitty katakana English from their JTE's so they have no clue what I'm talking about.

I love when I say something and then the JTE repeats in full on katakana right after me. There's no point in me coming to class and teaching them how to pronounce things if the teacher is going to just fuck it up 5 seconds later.

It all comes down to the fact these teachers have just completely given up and seem to have no confidence in the kids or themselves. It's pretty sad, honestly.