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UPGRAYEDD
March 31st, 2009, 09:02
Anyone want to make a good effort in explaining the usage of the different particles here?


I think I have a grasp on the ところで usage. Something along the lines of 'even if...not happen'.

に and を

Lets do this.

Mindflux
March 31st, 2009, 10:57
is that some sort of specific phrase or are you talking about just <place>で etc?

AliDimayev
March 31st, 2009, 11:22
tokoro has many meaning depending on how you using it.

enrique_suave
March 31st, 2009, 11:24
ところで to start a sentence also carries the meaning of "By the way..." or "While we're on the subject..."

A: 明日のコンサートすごく楽しみだね!
B: あっ、ところで、切符買ったんだよね?
A: うわぁ、忘れてた!

AliDimayev
March 31st, 2009, 11:25
Excuse me, we don't often use kanji for kippu. Got it?!

vdog
March 31st, 2009, 12:21
ところ
食べたところだ
I just ate

食べるところだ
I'm just about to eat

食べるところだった
I was just about to eat

ところを
I think this is the trickiest one, the part before を is being affected by the part after

出ようとしたところを先生に呼ばれた
Just when I tried to leave the teacher called me (the time that I was trying to leave was affected by being called by the teacher)

彼がパソコンを使っているところを見た
I saw him using the computer

ところに
食べているところに友達が入ってきた
Just as I was eating my friend came in.

ところで
食べては行けないところで食べちゃった
I ended up eating at a place where you aren't allowed to.

Is there a more grammatical use of ところで? I can't think of anything besides the literal use of ところ to mean "place"

UPGRAYEDD
March 31st, 2009, 13:09
駅の改札口を出たところで、急に雨に降られた。



As I was leaving the station gate it suddenly started to rain?

UPGRAYEDD
March 31st, 2009, 13:15
テストの答えがわかったところで、終わりのバザーが鳴った。

Hyakuman
March 31st, 2009, 15:16
You forgot ところが :)

It means "but"...

Hyakuman
March 31st, 2009, 15:19
駅の改札口を出たところで、急に雨に降られた。



As I was leaving the station gate it suddenly started to rain?

That usage was explained in one of the earlier threads, but it's more commonly written simply as "~ところ” having a similar meaning to "when".

For example: 私は、家を出たところ、雨が降りだした。

Jcubed
April 3rd, 2009, 09:10
You can also use ところ kind of like "part". For example, I believe there is/was a Pepsi commercial like 「おいしいところがいいね」

ampersand
April 3rd, 2009, 09:35
Yeah. ところ literally means place, but it has figurative uses similar to those of part or point in English. If you parse it that way, then the various combinations of ところ+particle are pretty straightforward.

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 10:21
Okay

How would you describe the differences in these sentences?

駅の改札口を出たところで、急に雨に降られた。

駅の改札口を出た途端、雨が降ってきた。

Hyakuman
April 3rd, 2009, 10:30
ところ is refering to a broad time range in which you exited the ticket gates. Could have started pooring as soon as you exited, a few moments after, or even a few minutes after.

途端 is used for that exact moment when you exited the ticket gates. Basically as soon as you stepped out of the gates, you felt a drop of rain.

basically the 時間の範囲 is different between ところ and 途端.

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 10:37
In my dictionary my definition for ところ mentions 丁度, and for た途端 it talks about unexpected events.

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 10:45
Would this be a more correct translation?

Just as I was leaving the station it suddenly started to rain.

Right when I left the station gates it started raining on me (and I wasn't expecting that).

Hyakuman
April 3rd, 2009, 11:26
I think the ちょうど comes into play because ところ is almost always refered to in past tense situation. Therefore the time range is generally identifiable.

However, 途端 shouldn't be limited to unexpected events since it's used in a lot of idioms. Just take a look at some of the example sentences on Space ALC (http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E9%80%94%E7%AB%AF/UTF-8/?ref=sa).

Basically, the translation of the above sentances would likely be:

"When I exited the ticket gates, I suddenly got rained on."

"As soon as I stepped out of the gates, it started raining."

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 11:45
I'm really refering to the specific 動詞た途端 formation.

Dictionary gives this note. 話し手の意外な感じ、びっくりした感じがあるので、後文に話し手の意思がない。

Hyakuman
April 3rd, 2009, 11:58
Your dictionary must be explaining only one side of the equation... Here's a couple of good examples:

それを見た途端、一瞬にして過去の記憶がよみがえってきたのです。
Once she saw that, her past memories came flooding back.

ほしいものを手に入れた途端、もうあなたはいらなくなってしまうのね。
As soon as you've gotten what you've want, you won't need it anymore.

I fail to see any expression of unexpectedness, or surprise in those statements.

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 12:24
That's because they are not in the first person.

Hyakuman
April 3rd, 2009, 13:02
Okay fair enough, how about:

ドアから出ようとした途端に、彼の言葉を思い出した。
"Just as I was about to go out the door, I remembered his words."

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 13:06
I think so. Unexpected.

Hyakuman
April 3rd, 2009, 13:09
Well, I think this is probably splitting hairs on the "unexpected" issue, but if those three sentences contain said unexpectedness, then it's really like saying that any non-volitional action is unexpected.

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 13:23
Well there is た瞬間

Hyakuman
April 3rd, 2009, 13:36
Yeah, ~た瞬間 basically means the same as ~た途端 however 瞬間 is emphasizing the 瞬間, (that moment in time itself), versus 途端 emphasizing the verb before it.

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 13:38
I need a tutor.

Hyakuman
April 3rd, 2009, 13:45
;)

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 13:56
Man if I had money I'd quit jet and go to language school.

toadhjo
April 3rd, 2009, 14:38
Man if I had money I'd quit jet and go to language school.

Just watch a lot of TV and read a lot, you'll figure out the nuances eventually.

Keep in mind, you don't really need to be using these phrases, for the time being at least. Once you know what they mean, you'll be able to hear how they're used by other people, in context, and you'll get a better feel for when to use them.

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 14:46
Yep but if I don't discuss them with people immediately after I read them I never remember them.

I've been slipping new words into my text messages to my girlfriend but I think I need more quality sit down time with a teacher.

But you have a Japanese girlfriend you say? I just feel weird talking Japanese grammar with her and I'd hate to come off as a Jap-go leech.

toadhjo
April 3rd, 2009, 15:55
Yep but if I don't discuss them with people immediately after I read them I never remember them.

I've been slipping new words into my text messages to my girlfriend but I think I need more quality sit down time with a teacher.

But you have a Japanese girlfriend you say? I just feel weird talking Japanese grammar with her and I'd hate to come off as a Jap-go leech.

Just out of curiosity, do you speak in J-go or Eigo?

UPGRAYEDD
April 3rd, 2009, 16:08
A bit of both.

Hyakuman
April 3rd, 2009, 16:30
Yep but if I don't discuss them with people immediately after I read them I never remember them.

I've been slipping new words into my text messages to my girlfriend but I think I need more quality sit down time with a teacher.

But you have a Japanese girlfriend you say? I just feel weird talking Japanese grammar with her and I'd hate to come off as a Jap-go leech.

I told mine, "I'm in Japan, so goddamnit, Imma throw all the Japanese at you I can get." She was like, "sounds a good!"

Nowadays we use a lot more English because I've well exceeded what she could teach me in everyday speech, so it's time to pay back with some English banter.