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Miss_igirisu
February 1st, 2011, 20:33
Just wondered what people's thoughts on this was

Swedish Court Protects Imaginary Children | Japan Probe (http://www.japanprobe.com/2011/01/31/swedish-court-protects-imaginary-children/)

I have very mixed feelings on it.. but would like to hear what other people have to say.

5100
February 2nd, 2011, 01:53
As gross as that stuff is, and as much as it probably does encourage aberrant behaviour, I don't think that the ban performs the task of directly protecting children. Most child porn laws are intended to help keep underage people from being molested; molestation has not occurred in these comics.

bigredgoofball
February 2nd, 2011, 02:17
Agreed. It's a silly and somewhat scary precedent. What's next? If I drew a picture of someone getting shot, would I be arrested for conspiracy to murder? If I drew a picture of a building burning, is it attempted arson?

Is what we imagine a crime? Is what we write and draw a crime? Do we actually have the right or freedom as world citizens to read what we want, to look at any work of art or creative expression that we find? Or is only "safe and approved" art worth having in the world? And just who is to judge?

I'm with uthink on this one. Spend your days kicking child molesters right square in their balls while wearing a Chris Hansen t-shirt, and I'll cheer you on and bring snacks. But when you start criminalizing artistic expression, in which no actual living being is hurt or damaged or exposed in any way, it's just a back door into government censorship.

5100
February 2nd, 2011, 02:21
I'm with uthink on this one.

Gah. Igirisu, can I change my vote?

bigredgoofball
February 2nd, 2011, 02:29
Gah. Igirisu, can I change my vote?
Just what did I do to you? LOL... :D

Jordan
February 2nd, 2011, 02:29
You have to recognise the ability of entertainment and media to make behaviours appear more normal, in the same sense that children seeing drinking and smoking on TV makes that seem normal. This decision may be based on a similar concern that allowing depictions of children having sex will gradually normalise the behaviour.

bigredgoofball
February 2nd, 2011, 02:40
You have to recognise the ability of entertainment and media to make behaviours appear more normal, in the same sense that children seeing drinking and smoking on TV makes that seem normal. This decision may be based on a similar concern that allowing depictions of children having sex will gradually normalise the behaviour.
An on-point and coherent argument, to be sure.

I would argue that in the case of impressionable children, it is incumbent upon family and parents to actually pay attention to what their children read and watch. Parents and/or family are supposed to watch out for and guide their children, to give them the tools to stand up to peer pressure, and do what's best for them in the long term. That includes monitoring and guiding their attitudes toward sex and acceptability of sexual norms in the time and place in which they live.

In the case of adults, however, your point is more difficult to argue against. One would like to think that grown adults can distinguish between what is harmful or not in reality, as opposed to fantasy... but having had relatives in law enforcement for my whole life, I know quite well that this is not always the case. There's not really an easy answer for this one... but I always tend to side with holding the individual responsible for their own actions, and leaving wider rights intact. It's a tougher call, and you make a very salient point.

5100
February 2nd, 2011, 02:47
You have to recognise the ability of entertainment and media to make behaviours appear more normal, in the same sense that children seeing drinking and smoking on TV makes that seem normal. This decision may be based on a similar concern that allowing depictions of children having sex will gradually normalise the behaviour.

True. But can anyone be penalized for something they haven't done? And would the limitations encompass things like a Blue Lagoon graphic novel? If reading something leads to a behaviour, then where does the censorship stop? They just released an edited version of Huck Finn, where all the profanity and racial epithets are removed.

I'm definitely not supporting the content, I'm just unsure of the ethics of censoring it.

It's a slippery slope.

kalliea
February 2nd, 2011, 06:30
The US has had this law on the book for the last 3 years. It was also started because someone was looking at Japanese manga/porn. Stupid Japanese.

But doesn't Australia have this law because of some Simpsons porn? I heard that someone was convicted in Parramatta for downloading porn with Lisa and Bart in it.

This is silly.

tenderRondo
February 2nd, 2011, 06:44
who the fuck could watch simpsons porn? at least my porn is based on the world of the gummi bears

5100
February 2nd, 2011, 06:53
Vidya (http://www.avclub.com/articles/heres-a-sfw-trailer-for-the-simpsons-porn-parody-o,49942/)

bigredgoofball
February 2nd, 2011, 06:53
Secret ingredient in Viagra? Gummi Berry Juice. True story.

Miss_igirisu
February 2nd, 2011, 06:59
Gah. Igirisu, can I change my vote?

It's cool, I didn't put a "chicken pot pie" option so the votes are free!

Miss_igirisu
February 2nd, 2011, 07:07
You have to recognise the ability of entertainment and media to make behaviours appear more normal, in the same sense that children seeing drinking and smoking on TV makes that seem normal. This decision may be based on a similar concern that allowing depictions of children having sex will gradually normalise the behaviour.

This is closest to how I feel I think.. BUT this is a very Western point of view. Like when some American teenager goes and shoots everyone in his school, the first thing they look for is manga in his room. When they find it, they're like "IT'S THE MANGA!!" ignoring the fact that the kid was bullied all his life.

There is the thing of being shamed into not reporting.. but Japan, a country where sexy pictures of children (both real - bikini books and the like, and drawn) are ok, has a lot less violence against real children than England, where it is not ok to have those things. Deep down, I think the manga should be banned (yes, I know it's a bad thing... how violence seems to be ok and such) but I think that by having an imaginary outlet, maybe it stops people from acting out in real life.

Just out of interest, are there any manga that we know of where children are like cut up and murdered? Something really gory?

kalliea
February 2nd, 2011, 07:28
Yep. It's called goru (I think.) It is extreme rape/murder/pain stuff. Women/children with body parts being cut off and shoved into other parts. Crazy, hard to look at stuff.

EDIT - Checked. It is actually called guro. My bad.


But about what you said on the Japan vs England crimes against children. I'm really on the fence about this. I this there is a ton of crimes again children in Japan that doesn't get reported; more than most other countries. This is a society that looks away from people being molested on trains and thinks locking kids in closest is the kindest form of discipline.

Yet at the same time Japanese society has peopel who fall in love with pillows. In the US there is always escalation. People with anger issues bully others, than they kill animals, than we have serial killers. It is the same with sex stuff. There doesn't seem to be the same sort of escalation in Japan. People here seem to get really into one thing and stick with it. So the guys who love the pillows want to marry the pillow, not find a small child who looks like that character on the pillow and rape her. So there could be a good argument that having this fantasy outlet is actually safer for children.

tenderRondo
February 2nd, 2011, 07:30
http://www.coloringuniverse.com/web_images/gummi_bears.jpg

mmmmmmm

kalliea
February 2nd, 2011, 07:37
http://www.gadling.com/media/2006/04/gummi.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/unionbig/sets/72057594092158980/)

Miss_igirisu
February 2nd, 2011, 07:37
I this there is a ton of crimes again children in Japan that doesn't get reported; more than most other countries.


How do you know this? Is there any proof?

kalliea
February 2nd, 2011, 07:49
How do you know this? Is there any proof?

This is some stats on extreme abuse, that led to the death of a child.


A study by the Health, Labor and Welfare Ministry of 202 child-abuse deaths between 2000 and 2004 revealed that authorities had at least some foreknowledge of victims being at risk in 164, or 81 percent, of the cases.
In about a third of the cases, authorities suspected abuse but failed to contact child-guidance centers.
In a fifth of the cases, authorities deemed that no intervention was necessary.




"Child abuse is one of the fastest-growing and most serious problems facing mental health practitioners in contemporary Japan," said psychologist Junichi Shoji, a leading expert on the problem. And the government is moving way too slow, he said. "We sense very little progress in policy."
Child-guidance centers, the public agencies charged with overseeing the welfare of children, received 34,472 reports of abuse in fiscal 2005, the latest year for which data were available. That was 3 percent more than the previous year, and 30 times the reports received in 1990, when the then Health and Welfare Ministry began conducting nationwide surveys of child abuse cases.


If 30% of the time police are called for extreme abuse they don't even file a report, it isn't a stretch to assume a lot of the time they aren't called at all...



Parents have traditionally had enormous authority when it comes to raising children, with the government reluctant to intervene, but that's now changing. The Government wants to crack down on so-called "parental rights" and is planning to increase the number of situations in which the state can take children from their parents.

Miss_igirisu
February 2nd, 2011, 08:02
Thanks for the quotes. It's interesting.

And come on guys, this isn't anything goes. I posted it in here for a reason.

bigredgoofball
February 2nd, 2011, 08:43
I think the question is changing here, from one of "Do you think it's right to make fictional accounts and characters illegal" to "Do you think fictional accounts and images inspire the behaviour depicted, or an increase in anti-social behaviour towards children?" The FBI may have statistics on the 2nd question, I don't know. But I think making the assumption that "having manga = a person becoming a threat" is a fallacy.

Possessing 500 books about being a ninja did not make my old college room mate a ninja. Having all of Agatha Christie's works doesn't make me a detective. Nor do I show up at crime scenes with a magnifying glass and an attitude, just because I have the complete Sherlock Holmes collection. I doubt that Uthink has tried to build a real working Tardis, or that Daddyatemyfries really thinks she can go into the spirit realm after Ichigo, or that tenderRondo really has touching fantasies about gummi bears.

So the remaining question really becomes, what is it about this particular genre of art/fiction that made the Swedish government take this step?

word
February 2nd, 2011, 08:49
I have no problem with this sort of art. At all. I'm opposed to censorship in nearly all forms. Period.

I think that Kall is overblowing a problem that involves an incredibly small minority of children in Japanese society. I don't really blame her, though, because I think modern media has done a fantastic job of scaring the shit out of parents and concerned people all over the world.

I think that you, Miss I, are correct in your belief that Japan is, for the large part, a much, much safer place for children than England or the US.

I strongly disagree with Jordan's argument. It sounds nice on the surface, but I don't believe it is supported by empirical evidence.

tenderRondo
February 2nd, 2011, 09:04
OOPS!

Antonath
February 2nd, 2011, 09:47
This is definitely slippery slope stuff. I hate sound like a nutcase here, but there is a war on imagination taking place around the world. In cases like this, it's coinciding with the war on sex that the "western" world is waging.

While I get the argument about escalation (drawn to real life, etc), I don't buy it. I've been playing video games and watching movies involving guns for years. While I'm not going to deny a certain interest in them, I have no desire to grab one and start shooting real people.

Miss_igirisu
February 2nd, 2011, 10:00
All I know is that i know 8 year old kids who go to juku in cities 2 hours away by train every week alone and are safe, when back home it's common for people to have sories of an uncle touching them in a wrong way or something.

I'm not sure what my views are on controlling free speech and what not are, my heart says that this is all wrong but my head says that there if people can play violent games and stuff then why can't they read manga like this?

I do really dislike how people see Japanese culture as sick and bad though. For every sick manga of a kid out there there is a sick drawing of a Disney princess or dora the explorer on the net. And people don't bother to worry about that. But if it's from japan, it's always wrong, isn't it. Sucks.

5100
February 2nd, 2011, 10:17
I think that Kall is overblowing a problem that involves an incredibly small minority of children in Japanese society. I don't really blame her, though, because I think modern media has done a fantastic job of scaring the shit out of parents and concerned people all over the world.
.

At least once a week someone tells me about how much safer the world once was, how you could leave your doors unlocked, etc. I avoid pointing out that those things were never okay, it was just collective stupidity.

Antonath
February 2nd, 2011, 10:18
I do really dislike how people see Japanese culture as sick and bad though. For every sick manga of a kid out there there is a sick drawing of a Disney princess or dora the explorer on the net. And people don't bother to worry about that. But if it's from japan, it's always wrong, isn't it. Sucks.
The problem is that the west see animation and cartoons as being children's entertainment: they're seen as genres rather than media. Whereas in Japan, anime or manga is just another way of telling a story, with no more age bias than film or novels.

Kegger
February 2nd, 2011, 11:48
That link is blocked at my school *sadface*

5100
February 2nd, 2011, 11:50
That link is blocked at my school *sadface*

A Swedish court has ruled that it is illegal for people to own certain drawings of imaginary children:
A Swedish appeals court imposed a fine of 5,600 kronor ($864) on translator of Japanese manga on Friday because drawings stocked on his hard drives were considered child pornography.
The material was not made public, but the 27-year-old top manga expert’s sentencing by a lower court in June had raised the question whether it could be considered child pornography.
Lundström said the drawings, seized during a police search at his home, circulated freely in Japan and did not, unlike pornography, portray real children.

Kegger
February 2nd, 2011, 11:54
At least once a week someone tells me about how much safer the world once was, how you could leave your doors unlocked, etc. I avoid pointing out that those things were never okay, it was just collective stupidity.

+1.

kalliea
February 2nd, 2011, 16:34
At least once a week someone tells me about how much safer the world once was, how you could leave your doors unlocked, etc. I avoid pointing out that those things were never okay, it was just collective stupidity.

You're talking to someone who still doesn't lock her doors. ;)

That being said I didn't say rapist were lurking around every corner waiting to jump on unsuspecting school children. I just said that in Japan child abuse was less reported.

I'm all for these comics. They might not be my particular cup of tea, and maybe I would have a problem with them being sold in the average conbini where the kids can see them, but what goes on in people's bedrooms is has nothing to do with outsiders. I can't imagine being jailed/fined for owning a comicbook.

word
February 3rd, 2011, 08:14
You're talking to someone who still doesn't lock her doors. ;)I don't make a habit of it, but I've been known to leave my doors unlocked from time to time. I once went on a weekend vacation with my house unlocked, laptop and stuff all out on the table, etc. Been known to leave my car running while I run into the combini. These are things I would never, ever, ever have done back home in the 'States.


That being said I didn't say rapist were lurking around every corner waiting to jump on unsuspecting school children. I just said that in Japan child abuse was less reported.And I'm just not sure that fact is true. I would imagine that a large amount of child abuse also goes unreported in the 'States... and pretty much every other part of the world, too. All I know is, as Miss I pointed out, I see kids running around, walking to school, taking trains, riding bicycles, etc. even when they're alone/parents are nowhere to be seen. I would not see these things back home (certainly not to the extent that I see them in Japan, anyway).

Antonath
February 3rd, 2011, 09:58
All I know is, as Miss I pointed out, I see kids running around, walking to school, taking trains, riding bicycles, etc. even when they're alone/parents are nowhere to be seen. I would not see these things back home (certainly not to the extent that I see them in Japan, anyway).
How much of that is due to the whole "parents refuse to take responsibility for their children" thing that's been discussed recently?

Miss_igirisu
February 3rd, 2011, 10:12
Even if parents aren't taking responsability, do you think a 8 year old kid would get on a train alone again after being molested on one?

Antonath
February 3rd, 2011, 10:19
If it was the only way to get to school and all their parents had said was "it's traditional. Gaman and don't complain", probably.

Ok, that's taking things to an extreme, I admit, but most of these kids are out by themselves because they have no other option.

Miss_igirisu
February 3rd, 2011, 10:25
No. I can tell you that if a child is sexually abused, they will be mentally scarred and will not want to go to/do whatever they were doing when it happened. They would be hikikomori if they had no other choice.

Jojo
February 3rd, 2011, 10:29
If it was the only way to get to school and all their parents had said was "it's traditional. Gaman and don't complain", probably.

Ok, that's taking things to an extreme, I admit, but most of these kids are out by themselves because they have no other option.
sorry dude but thats just total crap. The kids are out there because people feel safe with letting their kids do it and 99% of the time they are... If they thought it wasnt safe they wouldnt let their kid do it.

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 10:56
Even if parents aren't taking responsability, do you think a 8 year old kid would get on a train alone again after being molested on one?

Yes. Absolutely.


No. I can tell you that if a child is sexually abused, they will be mentally scarred and will not want to go to/do whatever they were doing when it happened. They would be hikikomori if they had no other choice.

Most children who are abused once are abused multiple times. One time things are actually very rare. 8 year olds might not even understand what happened, let alone be able to explain to their parents. I once heard an 8 year old explain what she saw when she walked in on her mom giving daddy head. It was like 'daddy had a popsicle in his lap and mommy was eating it. But daddy looked sad, and he was making weird noises.'

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 10:58
sorry dude but thats just total crap. The kids are out there because people feel safe with letting their kids do it and 99% of the time they are... If they thought it wasnt safe they wouldnt let their kid do it.


In 2001, a survey of two private high-schools in Tokyo revealed that more than 70% had been groped on the train.


If 70% have been groped, it isn't exactly 99% safe.

But I like idea of making women and children only cars they are doing in Tokyo.

Jojo
February 3rd, 2011, 11:35
If 70% have been groped, it isn't exactly 99% safe.

But I like idea of making women and children only cars they are doing in Tokyo.
i thought we were talking about 8 year olds not 16 and 17 year olds - also tokyo has a oretty bad rep for chikan generally

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 11:40
It gets harder and harder to find out stats the younger you go because the children are less likely to understand what is happening to them. Little kids are use to people touching them; their parents still dress them, friends and realitives pick them up and carry them around, they sit on people's laps, etc. Groping/molesting doesn't necessarily mean hurting someone or shoving your fingers in their ass.

Miss_igirisu
February 3rd, 2011, 11:49
Yes. Absolutely.



Most children who are abused once are abused multiple times. One time things are actually very rare. 8 year olds might not even understand what happened, let alone be able to explain to their parents. I once heard an 8 year old explain what she saw when she walked in on her mom giving daddy head. It was like 'daddy had a popsicle in his lap and mommy was eating it. But daddy looked sad, and he was making weird noises.'

Kal, I can tell you from personal experience that a kid will be scarred even if it's just once. I'm pretty sure Japanese children don't have this thing in their brain that makes them accept abuse more than other children.

Miss_igirisu
February 3rd, 2011, 11:53
And yes, a child does know. If it's like a toddler then it's debatable, but an 8 year old will know the difference between mommy dressing them and a strange man touching them in wrong places.

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 12:07
Kal, I can tell you from personal experience that a kid will be scarred even if it's just once. I'm pretty sure Japanese children don't have this thing in their brain that makes them accept abuse more than other children.

Please don't twist my words. I didn't say Japanese children had something in their brains that made them accept abuse. When I said children I meant all children. We can't get inside kids minds and understand their workings but it is often the case that they don't know what people are doing to them is wrong. Even if it hurts, even if they don't like it, they don't know it is wrong. This is why a lot of abuse victims blame themselves. On top of that, again, most cases of abuse are never reported. Like 50% or more.

We also seem to be mixing terms. When I say abuse I don't necessarily mean sexual abuse. Less than 10% of abuse is sexual abuse.

Miss_igirisu
February 3rd, 2011, 12:14
I'm not twisting your words. You said all children. I said that I know for sure children at 8 (the example age I used earlier) can know it's wrong and do get scarred from it. Now if both of these are to be true, then either british kids are more sensative, or perhaps I was more sensative. In which case I am saying children are children.

And yes we are talking about sexual abuse because that is the damned topic. Pedo manga = abusing children = ? is the question.

I know it's pot and kettle and all but unless you have some hard evidence that children as young as 8 do not know if they are abused or not then please kindly stop being a know it all, because you don't.

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 12:34
I'm not twisting your words. You said all children. I said that I know for sure children at 8 (the example age I used earlier) can know it's wrong and do get scarred from it. Now if both of these are to be true, then either british kids are more sensative, or perhaps I was more sensative. In which case I am saying children are children.

And yes we are talking about sexual abuse because that is the damned topic. Pedo manga = abusing children = ? is the question.

I know it's pot and kettle and all but unless you have some hard evidence that children as young as 8 do not know if they are abused or not then please kindly stop being a know it all, because you don't.

Yes, they can/most likely will be scarred by it, and they can know it is wrong, but that isn't usually the case. Normally by the time they realize it is wrong they are two ashamed to come forward.

Child Abuse: Dispelling 6 Myths About Self Blame (http://www.child-abuse-effects.com/child-abuse-dispelling-6-myths-about-self-blame.html)

Child abuse stats - Child Abuse Statistics (http://pediatrics.about.com/od/childabuse/a/05_abuse_stats.htm)
Study: Most Child Abuse Goes Unreported - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1863650,00.html)
Statistics on Sexual Abuse (http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/statistics/can/stat_sexAbuse.cfm) (this one has quite a bit of reading, sorry.)

Ack! I will write more later. Must leave. Back in about an hour!

Azrael
February 3rd, 2011, 12:51
I know for sure children at 8 (the example age I used earlier) can know it's wrong and do get scarred from it. Now if both of these are to be true, then either british kids are more sensative, or perhaps I was more sensative.

so who flicked your bean when you were a kid, your dad or your uncle?

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 13:09
I'm not twisting your words. You said all children. I said that I know for sure children at 8 (the example age I used earlier) can know it's wrong and do get scarred from it. Now if both of these are to be true, then either british kids are more sensative, or perhaps I was more sensative. In which case I am saying children are children.

And yes we are talking about sexual abuse because that is the damned topic. Pedo manga = abusing children = ? is the question.

I know it's pot and kettle and all but unless you have some hard evidence that children as young as 8 do not know if they are abused or not then please kindly stop being a know it all, because you don't.

Back! (sorry to run off in the middle of a debate.)

Anyway, this link http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/wfiles/w021.pdf specifially sayd 'most children do not tell anyone about the abuse.' Again, I don't know what goes on in children's minds, so we can't say if they don't tell because they are ashamed, afraid, or just don't know it is wrong.

The Pedo manga = abusing children = ? issue.

While the original post was about this topic, it seemed that is moved to train molestation to unreported abuse to where we are now. If you want to get back to just the evils of Pedo manga, than I don't have much to say. I think it should be legal, although I don't know how healthy it is. If you are old enough to search for and buy pedo manga, than you are set in your ways. I don't think it makes people escalate.

Also, here is the definition of sexual abuse:

Sexual abuse occurs when a child is engaged in sexual activities that he or she cannot comprehend, for which he or she is developmentally unprepared and cannot give consent, and/or that violate the law or social taboos of society.1 (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/116/2/506#R1)

Cannot comprehend is the very first one.

Miss_igirisu
February 3rd, 2011, 13:16
I was never talking about it being reported or not. I said that japans rate may be low because they don't report it- but my thing with you was that if a kid is hurt on a train they would not want to go on a train anymore.

Yes, a child will not comprehend that it is sexual or understnad what or why. But they know it's wrong. And they will feel uncomfortable and they will not want to be put in the same situation again.

Yes, with toddlers and younger children they may be completely oblivious. At my mums school There was a terrible case of child abuse from the mum and step dad to the point when the 5 year old boy thought that "licking my willy" was a normal procedure in taking a bath.

But I stand by my words that if a kid is abused somewhere like on a train, they would be scared to go there again.

I'm not going to argue with you over this anymore. Continue if you wish but I've gone too far anyway and this talk is ruining my day.

Azrael
February 3rd, 2011, 13:20
haha - you have issues

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 13:24
I was never talking about it being reported or not. I said that japans rate may be low because they don't report it- but my thing with you was that if a kid is hurt on a train they would not want to go on a train anymore.

Yes, a child will not comprehend that it is sexual or understnad what or why. But they know it's wrong. And they will feel uncomfortable and they will not want to be put in the same situation again.

Yes, with toddlers and younger children they may be completely oblivious. At my mums school There was a terrible case of child abuse from the mum and step dad to the point when the 5 year old boy thought that "licking my willy" was a normal procedure in taking a bath.

But I stand by my words that if a kid is abused somewhere like on a train, they would be scared to go there again.

I'm not going to argue with you over this anymore. Continue if you wish but I've gone too far anyway and this talk is ruining my day.

I don't know how you can make the claim it would scare them so they wouldn't go back. All the evidence just supported that kids don't report abuse. If they don't report it, how does the kids get to school if not by train? (In Tokyo.) Remember, the imaginary kids you are talking about is 8 years old. He is going to do what his mommy tells him. If he doesn't report the abuse, why would the parents let him stop taking that train?

In the same vein, look at all the kids who were abused by priests. It isn't like they all stopped going to that church. The continued to go, even though they hated it, even though they complained, they went. That is the worse part of abuse.

Miss_igirisu
February 3rd, 2011, 13:28
You don't have to tell someone that someone touched you for them to understnad that you don't want to do something.

*bow* I'm done. Enough.

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 13:33
Kids don't want to eat their vegetables or wash behind their ears. They don't want to go to school when they are sleepy, or the doctor's office when they are getting a shot.

Not 'wanting' to do something isn't a good enough excuse for a parent to not make their kids do something. It might (should!) encourage the parent to investigate why they don't want to do it, but if the kids doesn't say anything, what is the parent suppose to do? Change schools every time the kids says he doesn't his homeroom teacher?

Antonath
February 3rd, 2011, 13:54
I'm (mostly) going to agree with Miss I. The kids probably know something is wrong. I'm fortunate enough not to have first-hand or even second-hand knowledge of this, though. The point I was making, and that kal has got, is that even if they hate getting on the train every day, they still have to do it.

kalliea
February 3rd, 2011, 14:01
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I would say that knowing something is 'wrong' isn't the same as knowing you are being molested. It is the sense of wrongness that makes children blame themselves. They know something 'wrong' is going down and they are a part of it. It makes them think they themselves are bad.

word
February 4th, 2011, 11:04
I still think, kall, that you are wildly overestimating the amount of child abuse that takes place in Japan. I also think that you, like most Americans/Westerners, have some unfortunate misconceptions about child abuse. The vast (vast) majority of children who are sexually molested are, in fact, molested by a family member, not some random dude on a train. I've known a couple of girls who were abused at some point in their lives, and it was always by a family member.

Japan is safer for kids. I absolutely believe this. Not safer as in "an 8-year-old is less likely to get fingered by her dad," but safer as in "an 8-year-old is less likely to get picked up by some weirdo in a gray sedan, raped, and cut into small pieces and buried in the woods." I don't know why this is true. Could it be because those weirdoes have a neverending source of artistic lolicon wanking material? Maybe. In any case, I'd feel much better about allowing my kid to walk to school in my town here in Japan than I would in my town back in America.

You know, MG once told me this terrifying story about her childhood (she was around 6 or 7, I think), where she was in a department store (in the US) with her parents. Her parents let her run around a bit, and she came across this random dude. The dude tried to get her to follow him somewhere. She said that, even at the time, the situation "felt scary," so she ran off, found her parents, and told 'em what was going on. Kids aren't as stupid as most people think. Well, some kids might be, but couldn't that be a result of shitty parenting?

Gezora
February 4th, 2011, 12:23
I haven't been reading this thread at all. As disgusting and just flat out retarded as I find a lot of loli stuff to be, people should still be allowed to draw or say what they want.

Azrael
February 4th, 2011, 12:46
I haven't been reading this thread at all.

then you missed out on miss_i's bad touch flashbacks - i highly recommend you go back and have a read.

Antonath
February 7th, 2011, 16:33
They had the women-only cars during morning and evening rush hours in Nagoya and the idea just pissed me off. I feel that by failing to confront the actual problem they're just making it more acceptable. Just putting women in a different car doesn't fix the problem; in a way, I even think it exacerbates it. The molestors' behaviors aren't changing or even being addressed. And what of the women who stay in the mixed-gender cars?
They're obviously sluts who want to get groped.

...at least, that's what the general opinion will become.

kalliea
February 8th, 2011, 05:32
They had the women-only cars during morning and evening rush hours in Nagoya and the idea just pissed me off. I feel that by failing to confront the actual problem they're just making it more acceptable. Just putting women in a different car doesn't fix the problem; in a way, I even think it exacerbates it. The molestors' behaviors aren't changing or even being addressed. And what of the women who stay in the mixed-gender cars?

I disagree. I think the women only cabins are a helpful step. It keeps women safe and lets them ride in comfort while other options are being explored (on how to deal with gropers.) If they declared they were just doing women only compartments and calling it good I would agree with you, but this is only a short term solution and they are still trying to install cameras, have more police, raise awareness etc. Didn't a groper jump on the tracks a while back because a group of people were chasing him? I think they just added cameras and extra police patrols on lines with groping problems.

So, basically, I think they are providing a safe haven while they deal with the problem, rather than instead of dealing with it.

5100
February 8th, 2011, 05:58
Yeah! And they should totally have separate but equal public services for women too. It's safer for them and keeps them in their place!

That's dangerous thinking.

kalliea
February 8th, 2011, 06:01
Ah, but you see the women have the option of using either the normal cars or the women only ones. Don't think it is a bad thing when giving more options.

5100
February 8th, 2011, 06:03
Are there men-only cars?

Taurus
February 8th, 2011, 09:12
And even if it is, I still think it's ridiculous to relegate women, even voluntarily, to a separate car just keep them away from perverts who are allowed to just chill out.

It's hardly 'relegation'. Women have the freedom to choose to sit/stand in any carriage; men don't.

And perverts aren't allowed to just chill out. If they molest someone they get arrested and punished. And sometimes even if they don't molest someone they get targeted by gangs, who arrange for a woman to claim to have been molested and then extort money from their mark.

None of those things seem, to me, to be indicative of a society that is willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women. What else would you like Japan to do about perverts on trains?

word
February 8th, 2011, 09:28
What else would you like Japan to do about perverts on trains?Clearly, she wants Japan to be more proactive. Armed security officers should be placed on every train car, and if a man so much as glances at or, god forbid, smiles at a woman, he is to be arrested, removed from the train, publicly flogged, and have "痴漢" branded on his forehead.

It's high time that men learned their place. They should keep their hands in their pockets, their eyes downcast, and should only speak to a woman if addressed directly.

'Cause, you know, Japan doesn't have a problem with men being passive and meek or anything.

word
February 8th, 2011, 15:48
If they actually get arrested and punished. In Japan, like everywhere else, women are often too shamed to admit molestation when it happens. I don't know the statistics for chikan-related arrests, but I imagine they are very low.Here we see the real problem with your argument. You, like kall and, seemingly, so many of the "angry" women on the internet in general are talking out your ass. You have no idea what the actual percentages are. You have no idea how big or small the problem really is. You have no idea what you're talking about in general. You only know that people need to know how angry you are, that the problem is bigger than they think, and that they are all stupid for their own feeble efforts to correct the problem.


A national change in attitude, for both men and women, is in order. But countries avoid that solution because it's difficult, if not possible, to achieve.I'm assuming you mean "if not impossible."

But, yeah. Clearly, that's what's in order. With this issue and about five trillion other issues. Fuck any society that doesn't live up to your expectations. They should be made to change. They just need a ruthless feminist dictator to seize power, obviously. Here's your chance!



I clearly want all men imprisoned just for existing; it's clearly the most safe and logical solution. I didn't suggest any reforms and these are certainly not what I have in mind. In fact, my ideal solution to molestation involves empowering women to speak up against actual offenders rather than brushing it off and allowing the behavior to continue.Oh, I see, so it's the woman's fault. Or, at least, her parent's fault. Or, I guess, since the teachers are responsible for raising children here in Japan, it's their fault. Wait, aren't you a teacher in Japan? Clearly, young women getting groped on trains is all YOUR fault!


I don't even think the penalty for groping should necessarily be very severe, but they should exist.You don't think penalties exist for sexually abusing a woman?


And, unfortunately, like any other crime, sometimes the wrong people are punished. Whether it's the aforementioned extortion issue, a simple misunderstanding or something else entirely, people get unjustly accused all the time. We can't stop trying to stop crime just because some tiny percent of people are wrongly accused.We can't stop trying to run an efficient, safe, cost-effective, customer-friendly train service just because some tiny percent of people occasionally get felt up on 'em, either, can we? Apparently we can, because this problem is so bad, it threatens to tear all of Japan apart?


Not sure how the soushokukei culture has anything to do with this. Passive and meek men can molest anyone just as well as the next aggressive guy can.I suspect they're less likely to offend. I could be wrong. They'd certainly be easier to stop. A passive, meek guy would be completely embarrassed by a girl loudly accusing him of misconduct. Come to think about it, I'd worry more about a passive, meek guy being targeted by the extortion gangs previously mentioned.


Plus, I'm not suggesting we put people in their place, as you put it, at all; this point is totally irrelevant to the argument, at least as you've introduced it.The emotional subtext in your arguments speaks far more loudly than your words. You seem hurt, and you are lashing out.

Azrael
February 8th, 2011, 16:05
The emotional subtext in your arguments speaks far more loudly than your words. You seem hurt, and you are lashing out.

dont tell me your uncle got knuckle deep in your arse when you were a kid too? you should swap stories with miss_i

Taurus
February 8th, 2011, 16:18
I say relegated because their other choice is to stay in the mixed-gender car, which is arguably a more chikan-friendly zone now that women have a safer option. Would you really want to be one of the few women who couldn't fit into the women-only car and had to be in the mixed-gender car? I'm not saying they're actually forced but that the decision isn't a good one.

This is well mental. How is a mixed-gender car more chikan-friendly?

word
February 9th, 2011, 08:46
My argument is that the creation women-only cars is a decent idea, and that criticizing them as some sort of "cover-up" of the problem is short-sighted and foolish. Are women "relegated" to their own bathrooms? "Relegated" to their own onsen? "Relegated" to their own dressing rooms? This wasn't always the case, of course; mixed onsen used to be the norm. Most men who used such facilities probably behaved themselves, too. Eventually, though, responding to a demand for a more private facility, the sexes were segregated in most onsen.

You'll make the argument that "That's different; that's when women are getting naked, etc." I would argue that, fundamentally, the situation is no different whatsoever (there is nothing inherently sexual about bathing, using the toilet, or getting dressed). Onsen segregated by sex are popular because they make women feel more comfortable. The women-only cars are offered to the women to make them feel more comfortable.

Should women who go to a mixed onsen be expected to tolerate untoward behavior by male patrons? Likewise, a woman shouldn't be expected to tolerate untoward behavior on a mixed train car, either. You seem to be thinking that women who set foot on a mixed train car should expect a gauntlet of wandering 痴漢 hands. I would argue that they have the right to get from point A to point B unmolested, and should expect nothing less. That doesn't mean that I think women-only trains are somehow a bad idea. If the customer enjoys it, why shouldn't the business cater to that desire?

Some women on the women-only car might have never before encountered a groping guy, but they're afraid of 'em all the same. In my eikaiwa, none of the women had ever been touched inappropriately on a train, despite the fact that several of them lived in Tokyo for years as college students. They all said they liked the idea of women-only train cars, though.

My argument is that you're angry about an aspect of a culture that you can't really understand in a native context. I can't, either, but I'm not calling for a "national change in attitude."

I have not bent your words, but I do believe your words are ill-informed.

Antonath
February 9th, 2011, 10:23
Thread is getting a little teal deer, but here's a question I don't think we've asked:

Why is groping on the train such a big problem in Japan?

The London Underground gets just as packed during rush hour, but I don't recall hearing about groping going on there. Pick-pockets, yes; groping, no. Is it happening and unreported, or is it not an issue? What about other countries?

Page
February 9th, 2011, 11:07
I love women only cars. It's uncomfortable enough being stared at for being young and foreign that I enjoy having the choice. Or at least I did when I lived in Kansai. Now I secretly consider pokin out peoples' eyes.

Not going to get into this frenzy of semantics and statistics but the biggest necessity in both child and adult abuse is education and prevention measures. For children they need to be made aware that inappropriate touching goes for family and friends as much as it does for stranger danger. In Japan they need more of the same (mostly education since thats the most important part, IMO). I think the car may be a small step but it's an important one.

I also think it's selfish for any of the people in this thread to assume that women may have the same amount of fear or strength as them. All people have had different life experiences that have made them into the people they are today and it is ignorant to assume that you know what is best for everyone.

Page
February 9th, 2011, 11:13
Thread is getting a little teal deer, but here's a question I don't think we've asked:

Why is groping on the train such a big problem in Japan?

Sorry for the double post but it's hard to edit out blocks of text on my phone. I think it's a problem because Japan came a little late to the party where it was accepted that it was a problem worth reporting Now that it's a lot better I don't think it happens quite as much. Once those old dudes from that generation die off it'll probably happen as frequently as it does anywhere else ('cause freaks are everywhere).

Scrotty
February 9th, 2011, 11:38
Japan is safer for kids. I absolutely believe this. Not safer as in "an 8-year-old is less likely to get fingered by her dad," but safer as in "an 8-year-old is less likely to get picked up by some weirdo in a gray sedan, raped, and cut into small pieces and buried in the woods." I don't know why this is true.
in japan, if you pick a random porn off the shelf, chances are it will involve either family members or someone in a school uniform. i agree with you - it's much safer for a child to be running around town by themselves, the chances that they'll end up in the back of a twisted psychopath's dark-paneled van are much higher in america than in japan. however japan's sexualization of school students and children is pretty fuckin wack, and its prevalence is both a result of and a cause of hush-hush inappropriateness between teachers/students and parents/children


And perverts aren't allowed to just chill out. If they molest someone they get arrested and punished.
no they don't. of the countless stories i've heard from japanese and non-japanese friends alike who have been groped on trains or at stations or wherever, not once has the groper received any form of punishment. the main reason it's still happening is because it's so easy to get away with it.

surely you've heard stories from people who say they were groped on a packed train car, cried out for help, and everyone else in the carriage looked away and pretended it wasn't happening.


And sometimes even if they don't molest someone they get targeted by gangs, who arrange for a woman to claim to have been molested and then extort money from their mark.i have no idea why you brought this up. this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and even if it did, the incidence of fake extortion gropings as compared to actual gropings is so minuscule as to be negligible.


None of those things seem, to me, to be indicative of a society that is willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women.japanese society is more willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women than western societies such as in america, england or australia.

care to dispute?


You don't think penalties exist for sexually abusing a woman?
you think penalties are enforced for sexually abusing a woman?


This is well mental. How is a mixed-gender car more chikan-friendly?
as pointed out, from a chikans perspective, anyone in the women-only car is off-limits, anyone in the mixed-gender car is fair game. if a woman enters a mixed-gender car and gets groped, find me one good ol' responsibility-avoidin' liability-hatin' shame-dodgin' japenese fella who won't tell her 'it was your fault for not using the women-only car, that's why it's there!'

Gezora
February 9th, 2011, 11:43
in japan, if you pick a random porn off the shelf, chances are it will involve either family members or someone in a school uniform. i agree with you - it's much safer for a child to be running around town by themselves, the chances that they'll end up in the back of a twisted psychopath's dark-paneled van are much higher in america than in japan. however japan's sexualization of school students and children is pretty fuckin wack, and its prevalence is both a result of and a cause of hush-hush inappropriateness between teachers/students and parents/children


no they don't. of the countless stories i've heard from japanese and non-japanese friends alike who have been groped on trains or at stations or wherever, not once has the groper received any form of punishment. the main reason it's still happening is because it's so easy to get away with it.

surely you've heard stories from people who say they were groped on a packed train car, cried out for help, and everyone else in the carriage looked away and pretended it wasn't happening.

i have no idea why you brought this up. this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and even if it did, the incidence of fake extortion gropings as compared to actual gropings is so minuscule as to be negligible.

japanese society is more willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women than western societies such as in america, england or australia.

care to dispute?


you think penalties are enforced for sexually abusing a woman?


as pointed out, from a chikans perspective, anyone in the women-only car is off-limits, anyone in the mixed-gender car is fair game. if a woman enters a mixed-gender car and gets groped, find me one good ol' responsibility-avoidin' liability-hatin' shame-dodgin' japenese fella who won't tell her 'it was your fault for not using the women-only car, that's why it's there!'

Thread ovar. Scrotty is the new wind beneath my wings. Sorry Rondo.

Taurus
February 9th, 2011, 12:16
no they don't.

A quick google suggests that 4,000 of them do every year.


of the countless stories i've heard from japanese and non-japanese friends alike who have been groped on trains or at stations or wherever, not once has the groper received any form of punishment. the main reason it's still happening is because it's so easy to get away with it.

surely you've heard stories from people who say they were groped on a packed train car, cried out for help, and everyone else in the carriage looked away and pretended it wasn't happening.

If we're going to stick to anecdotal evidence, not a single one of my Japanese female friends has been groped on public transport. The only person I know who has encountered any sexual harassment on public transport is my sister, when some old geezer back in the UK flashed at her. Nobody was arrested.


i have no idea why you brought this up. this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and even if it did, the incidence of fake extortion gropings as compared to actual gropings is so minuscule as to be negligible.

I bring it up because this sort of extortion exists, and the only reason it exists is because perverts DO get prosecuted in Japan, and their behaviour IS frowned upon by the rest of society.


japanese society is more willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women than western societies such as in america, england or australia.

care to dispute?

Yes. How can you quantify a society's willingness to tolerate the sexual abuse of women? In America it is apparently legal for people like Max Hardcore to coerce young women into situations where they are abused, and then film it. Then people buy those movies. I think that shows a pretty high tolerance for the sexual abuse of women. I guess it depends on what metrics you use.


as pointed out, from a chikans perspective, anyone in the women-only car is off-limits, anyone in the mixed-gender car is fair game. if a woman enters a mixed-gender car and gets groped, find me one good ol' responsibility-avoidin' liability-hatin' shame-dodgin' japenese fella who won't tell her 'it was your fault for not using the women-only car, that's why it's there!'

Find me one that will. A chikan's perspective doesn't matter when evaluating whether a carriage is 'chikan-friendly' or not - what matters is whether their behaviour is more likely to be tolerated. I still can't see why having women-only carriages is going to make all of the people travelling in mixed-gender carriages suddenly approve of chikans more than they did before.

word
February 9th, 2011, 15:15
Should they have to expect it? No. Are they likely to expect it? I would, and do, at least.Ooh, a chance to use a Star Trek quote!


When a man is convinced he's going to die tomorrow, he'll probably find a way to make it happen.When you expect the worst in people, you shouldn't be surprised when you get it.

That said, I'm also a pretty cynical person.


I absolutely agree that everyone should expect to be respected. Everyone should be able to get from A to B untouched, but that doesn't change the fact the not everyone does make that trip untouched. Whether it's 5% that are getting touched, 60% (those who claim to have been groped on trains in Japan) or 90%, it shows that reality isn't meeting our expectations.When I get into a car, I expect to safely travel from A to B without a problem. Doesn't mean I don't fasten my seatbelt or fail to tell MG that I love her before I leave. That's just how reality works. The day reality matches our expectations, there won't be much point to life. You need to learn to trust people. There's a risk involved, sure, but the world is not as terrifying a place as so many people are trying to make it out to be.


I see this as another version of the, "What do you do with students who disrupt class?" question. Between Japan and America I see two basic attitudes. In Japan, you leave the kid in class; they are still theoretically able to receive their education while the other students are forced to deal with their disruptive ways. In America, you take the kid of out class; you deny him/her that aspect of their education but at least the other kids are able to continue class somewhat normally. Both of the solutions have their downsides, but I like the one where the problem students are isolated and dealt with directly (akin to a groper being called out and punished), which I see as being very different than isolating the good students in a separate class (offering women a separate car).But, again, you're passing a Western, Americanized judgement on an Eastern, Japanese society. Who is to say their way isn't better? They seem to have far fewer instances of outright violence than we do. Their crime rates are lower. Their kids seem a lot more respectful than my kids back in the 'States. It may be different in your Japan, but I hesitate to jump to judgements. If you'd care to read it, you might find this study (http://www.nasponline.org/publications/spr/pdf/spr351bear.pdf) interesting.


If your problem with my opinion is just that, a difference of opinions, then I can agree to disagree.I'm always down for that.


You're right that I'm speaking from a non-native perspective. But I'd feel the same way if I heard about women-only cars in America. It may be a smart business practice or a good short-term solution, but that doesn't mean I have to be on board with it.If it were in America, as an American, you'd certainly be qualified to offer a culturally native opinion on the matter.


Having no income tax in Tennessee seems like a smart move because hey! You don't have to pay income tax! But in the long-term, the state economy is failing and low-income families would be better off with an income tax than the sales taxes that they're paying. Many people still support the short-term solution but that doesn't make it good for them financially.There's no income tax in Texas, either, but our economy is doing fantastically well. This is a discussion for another thread, but suffice to say, in my opinion, Tennessee's troubles are related more to the fact that everyone who lives in there is an ultra-religious retarded inbred hillbilly*.

*I have never actually been to Tennessee, nor do I know anyone who lives there. I'm basing my opinion on a dumb stereotype.


I'm not sure what the problem is with imagining a long-term, far-reaching solution. Is it ill-informed to imagine something better? I'm not trying to change the world here, just offer my opinion on the issue.I'm offering mine in regards to your opinion, I guess. It's what the internet is for--a place where mouth-breathing idiots go to speculate about things they have pretty much no influence upon whatsoever.


in japan, if you pick a random porn off the shelf, chances are it will involve either family members or someone in a school uniform. i agree with you - it's much safer for a child to be running around town by themselves, the chances that they'll end up in the back of a twisted psychopath's dark-paneled van are much higher in america than in japan.Yup, that's pretty much what I was tryin' to say there.


however japan's sexualization of school students and children is pretty fuckin wack, and its prevalence is both a result of and a cause of hush-hush inappropriateness between teachers/students and parents/childrenIs it really? I've never seen any or heard of any inappropriate behavior by teachers at my schools... which is more than I can say for the schools I taught at/attended in America. Links to actual statistics? Links to studies demonstrating an empirically observable connection between Japan's tendency to sexualize schoolchildren/family members/etcetera and actual child abuse? I just worry that so much of what gets discussed in threads like this is based on hearsay and speculation.


You think penalties are enforced for sexually abusing a woman?Well... yeah, I do. Links to something demonstrating otherwise?


If we're going to stick to anecdotal evidence, not a single one of my Japanese female friends has been groped on public transport.Same here. Discussions about this issue in my eikaiwa have resulted in no stories of abuse, nor had anyone actually known anyone who was groped on a train. Several women in my eikaiwa actually speculated that the women who claim to be groped might be making the whole thing up for attention. Why is it that women judge one another so much more harshly than men?


Find me one that will. A chikan's perspective doesn't matter when evaluating whether a carriage is 'chikan-friendly' or not - what matters is whether their behaviour is more likely to be tolerated. I still can't see why having women-only carriages is going to make all of the people travelling in mixed-gender carriages suddenly approve of chikans more than they did before.Word.

It seems to me that the existence of the story of Train Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Densha_Otoko) would indicate a sense of chivalry amongst the men of Japan--that large groups of them view the harassment of women as a bad thing, and are enamored with the concept of the nobility of standing up to such harassment. It might all be fiction, sure, but the feeling apparently exists. Maybe if the men here weren't so damned meek and submissive. I wonder why they would hesitate to help someone in need... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1299818/Half-men-steer-clear-children-trouble-fear-branded-paedophiles.html)

Scrotty
February 9th, 2011, 15:23
A quick google suggests that 4,000 of them do every year.
wait, quick google searches add credibility?! well then, you mind if i do the same?


Roughly 6,000 men are arrested every year for groping or taking unsolicited inappropriate pictures
A public poll stated that 80% of female train riders have been groped


Continue reading at NowPublic.com: Groping on Tokyo Trains: Growing Groper Problem & Amazing Stats | NowPublic News Coverage (http://www.nowpublic.com/world/groping-tokyo-trains-growing-groper-problem-amazing-stats#ixzz1DR7lr657) Groping on Tokyo Trains: Growing Groper Problem & Amazing Stats | NowPublic News Coverage (http://www.nowpublic.com/world/groping-tokyo-trains-growing-groper-problem-amazing-stats#ixzz1DR7lr657)


let's do a little math here. japan has a female poplulation of roughly 63 million. now let's be extremely generous and say that only 10% of them count as 'female train riders' (which is a completely ridiculous assumption but let's run with it). that means 5 million women have been groped. 5 million women groped, 6000 men arrested for groping. granted, the statistics are not exactly rock solid, but no matter how you look at it, no matter what numbers you use or what year you check it in, the number of arrests for groping is not even within 0.001% of the number of incidents of groping that have taken place.



If we're going to stick to anecdotal evidence, not a single one of my Japanese female friends has been groped on public transport.1) do you even have any japanese female friends?
2) are there any forms of public transport in your area?
3) do you live in bumfuck inaka?
4) have you asked any of them specifically?

even some of my students have been targeted by train molesters, and they're not even from urban centers. depending on the answers to questions 1 through 4 above, i'm fairly certain you're talking squarely out of your ass.


I bring it up because this sort of extortion exists, and the only reason it exists is because perverts DO get prosecuted in Japan, and their behaviour IS frowned upon by the rest of society.i would argue that if anything, bringing this up only harms your (what i am sincerely hoping is) devil's advocate stance. if men accused of train groping are seen as victims of blackmail and false accusation, what motivation do the true victims of train gropers have to speak out?


Yes. How can you quantify a society's willingness to tolerate the sexual abuse of women?well, here' s a little test you can do in the comfort of your own little corner of japan! ask any comely japenese beauty if she has any concerns about riding the trains or subways in the perfectly safe public transport system of tokyo. i will 100% guarantee that she will have concerns about being groped.

next, get a friend to ask a woman in new york or london or sydney the same thing about their public transport system. chances are their answer may be along the lines of the train being late, or getting mugged, or having a homeless guy vomit on her shoes.

now i'm not saying that the japanese culture encourages this kind of behavior, but it does facilitate it. i'm sure i heard a japanese expression that goes along the lines of 'the japanese person waits for instruction' that was used as an explanation as to why nobody does anything when a girl is getting groped in front of them - everybody is waiting for someone else to do something before they act so they know what it is they're supposed to be doing.


Find me one that will.well, in case you missed it, that particular instruction was rhetorical. but if you insist that every single non-chikan commuter would take action in the presence of a train groping, then why are there women's-only carriages?


A chikan's perspective doesn't matter when evaluating whether a carriage is 'chikan-friendly' or notactually, i'm pretty sure a chikan's perspective could be considered definitive when it comes to whether or not something is chikan-friendly, but whatever


I still can't see why having women-only carriages is going to make all of the people travelling in mixed-gender carriages suddenly approve of chikans more than they did before.it's not, and i never said it did. non-chikans just have a rock solid excuse for inaction now, and if japanese society has taught you nothing else, surely you realize by now that ways to shift the blame are far more valuable than solutions to problems.

Scrotty
February 9th, 2011, 15:49
Is it really? I've never seen any or heard of any inappropriate behavior by teachers at my schools... which is more than I can say for the schools I taught at/attended in America. Links to actual statistics? Links to studies demonstrating an empirically observable connection between Japan's tendency to sexualize schoolchildren/family members/etcetera and actual child abuse? I just worry that so much of what gets discussed in threads like this is based on hearsay and speculation.
so much of it is based on hearsay and speculation because hearsay and speculation end up being the only evidence of it, hence my use of the term 'hush-hush'. i believe you've asked this before, when someone was talking about the number of unreported cases of child abuse, and you asked to see some statistics on it. if it was unreported, how could it have been documented? all one can do is speculate on the spread of the problem based on the amount of times they hear about it.

also, i can say with a decent amount of confidence that there probably is some teacher/student inappropriateness going on in your area, and it's just that you don't know about it. two years in, i would have said the exact same thing as you - there is no untoward business going on in my japan! then once the surface gets scratched it's actually really shocking and unsettling to find out how much was going on right under your nose.


Well... yeah, I do. Links to something demonstrating otherwise?perhaps i should have clarified by inserting the word 'strictly' before the word 'enforced'. see my above response to taurus for an idea on the percentage of convictions vs the percentage of incidents.

also, while looking for those figures, i came across something that indicated there were more than 100 websites for chikan communities that told the best places to do it, as well as hints/tips on how to do it undetected and evade arrest, and ways to organize groups of 4-6 chikans to surreptitiously shield the victim from view. i'm sure for every 'train man' fiction out there, there's far more websites and sources for chikans.

Taurus
February 9th, 2011, 15:52
wait, quick google searches add credibility?! well then, you mind if i do the same?

I wasn't looking for credibility - this is the internet. I was just pointing out that you are wrong to say that people don't get punished for groping women on Japanese trains.

You might want to check out your 80% figure, by the way. If you go here:

89% of train groping victims don't notify police: survey | The Japan Times Online (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20101015a2.html)

You can see that it's not that 80% of women have been groped. It's that 80% of the 13% of women (drawn from a survey of women living in three of Japan's largest metropolitan areas) who were groped didn't report it to the police.

The reason that survey exists is because the police were trying to encourage women to report these crimes.




1) do you even have any japanese female friends?
2) are there any forms of public transport in your area?

3) do you live in bumfuck inaka?
4) have you asked any of them specifically?

1) Yes, lots!
2) Yes, lots!
3) No!
4) Yes!


i would argue that if anything, bringing this up only harms your (what i am sincerely hoping is) devil's advocate stance. if men accused of train groping are seen as victims of blackmail and false accusation, what motivation do the true victims of train gropers have to speak out?It's not a devil's advocate stance. And it's not that I'm advocating groping on trains. I'm just trying to advocate people to stop viewing Japan as this otherworldly pervert's paradise that doesn't conform to western logic and decency. It's just a place full of people like anywhere else, and as in a lot of other places with people, the issue of sexual harassment is a complicated one and not as clear cut as some people on here seem to want to think.

(And men accused of train groping are not 'seen as victims of blackmail and false accusation'; it's that some of them ARE victims of blackmail and false accusation. Your survey further demonstrates that some men are also afraid to be accused of groping - which, I think, clearly demonstrates that all of these sentiments about the issue of groping are driven more by the way people's perceptions have been shaped by a moral panic than by actual events.)


why are there women's-only carriages?To make women feel safer in light of a moral panic about an issue that has an underlying substance of truth. I guess. To go back to my original point, I don't think their existence makes non-women-only carriages any more likely to encourage pervert gropers.


it's not, and i never said it did. non-chikans just have a rock solid excuse for inaction now, and if japanese society has taught you nothing else, surely you realize by now that ways to shift the blame are far more valuable than solutions to problems.This is just mental. Rock solid excuse? What? And this nonsense about 'japanese society' not being able to find solutions to problems is racist idiocy.

Scrotty
February 9th, 2011, 16:53
I was just pointing out that you are wrong to say that people don't get punished for groping women on Japanese trains.
yee-haw, let the hair-splittin' commence! ok, let me clarify. MOST offenders don't get punished for groping women on japanese trains.


You might want to check out your 80% figure, by the way. If you go here:

89% of train groping victims don't notify police: survey | The Japan Times Online (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20101015a2.html)

You can see that it's not that 80% of women have been groped. It's that 80% of the 13% of women (drawn from a survey of women living in three of Japan's largest metropolitan areas) who were groped didn't report it to the police.glad you're researching those statistics for me. you do realize you've actually given the math i did in the previous post a better result? in that math, i was assuming that 8% of women had been groped (10% of the population use trains, 80% of them get groped). your figures give a much more damning 13% of women being groped. that leads to a much larger discrepancy between incidents and convictions!

as i said, no matter what numbers you use, you're going to get the same result.


The reason that survey exists is because the police were trying to encourage women to report these crimes.and why were police encouraging women to report the crimes?

BECAUSE THE CRIMES GO UNREPORTED



1) Yes, lots!
2) Yes, lots!
3) No!
4) Yes!well, i have to insist that you're either not being entirely truthful here, or your friends are not being entirely truthful with you. try this - ask them if any of their friends have been groped.


It's not a devil's advocate stance. And it's not that I'm advocating groping on trains. I'm just trying to advocate people to stop viewing Japan as this otherworldly pervert's paradise that doesn't conform to western logic and decency.denying that the problem exists is as bad as supporting it. you're no better than the faceless commuters who witness the incidents and do nothing about them.

as i said before, japan in and of itself is not specifically to blame for the problem. other parts of the world (such as india) have a high incidence of train groping too, and there are certain aspects of the culture (that don't even necessarily overlap with the aspects of japanese culture!) in those parts of the world which facilitate it there.


To make women feel safer in light of a moral panic about an issue that has an underlying substance of truth. I guess.'an underlying substance of truth'. 'a moral panic'. seriously what the fuck is this shit. let me show you something:
why are the women's only carriages?
to stop women getting groped.


To go back to my original point, I don't think their existence makes non-women-only carriages any more likely to encourage pervert gropers.pretty sure i've already covered this. let's try it another way. for easier nomenclature, i'm going to refer to women's-only carriages as 'new carriages', and mixed gender carriages (from both before and after the introduction of the women's-only carriages) as 'normal carriages'.
i'm saying: women were getting groped on normal carriages. new carriages were introduced. women don't get groped on new carriages. women still get groped on normal carriages. if a woman travels on a normal carriage and gets groped, it is very easy to point out that she wouldn't have been groped on the new carriage.

nowhere in the above have i indicated that post-new-carriage-introduction normal carriages are an active source of support for the crime, so stop bringing that up please.


This is just mental. Rock solid excuse? What?hmm, perhaps 'justification' would have been a better word. let's try an analogy. if you eat fugu and the poison kills you, the culprit is certainly the licensed chef who prepared the fish for you. and yet, how many people do you think would say 'if he'd have eaten tuna instead of fugu, that never would have happened'.

besides, what do you call this:

some men are also afraid to be accused of gropingother than an excuse for inaction?


And this nonsense about 'japanese society' not being able to find solutions to problems is racist idiocy.waldroon was right! i AM a racist! holy shit!
it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission
RACIST IDIOCY
the nail that sticks out asks to be pounded
RACIST IDIOCY
japanese television is mostly about people eating things
RACIST IDIOCY

Taurus
February 9th, 2011, 17:38
yee-haw, let the hair-splittin' commence!

Okey-doke.



glad you're researching those statistics for me. you do realize you've actually given the math i did in the previous post a better result? in that math, i was assuming that 8% of women had been groped (10% of the population use trains, 80% of them get groped). your figures give a much more damning 13% of women being groped. that leads to a much larger discrepancy between incidents and convictions!

They're not my figures, and they give a 13% rate of subset of Japanese women - women who commute in three of the most densely-packed urban spaces in Japan.


BECAUSE THE CRIMES GO UNREPORTED

SOME of the crimes go unreported. But what's your point here? There's so much batshit craziness going on in this thread that I forget what point you're trying to make.


denying that the problem exists is as bad as supporting it. you're no better than the faceless commuters who witness the incidents and do nothing about them.

And it just gets crazier! I haven't denied that a problem exists.



why are the women's only carriages?
to stop women getting groped.


Actually I think it's a bit more complicated than that - it's also to make women feel safer, as a response to a perception that groping is likely to happen.



nowhere in the above have i indicated that post-new-carriage-introduction normal carriages are an active source of support for the crime, so stop bringing that up please.

I'm only bringing it up because about the only point I made in this thread before you dived in to puke up multiquoted craziness is that the existence of women-only carriages is not likely to make mixed-sex carriages any more 'chikan-friendly' than before.

Scrotty
February 9th, 2011, 18:26
ok, i'm going to rewrite and number the points that you seem to be disagreeing with me on. you can even reply to them with a simple AGREE or DISAGREE. that should make it less confusing for you!

They're not my figures, and they give a 13% rate of subset of Japanese women - women who commute in three of the most densely-packed urban spaces in Japan.

MOST offenders don't get punished for groping women on japanese trains.

that leads to a much larger discrepancy between incidents and convictions!
as i said, no matter what numbers you use, you're going to get the same result.1) the discrepancy between the percentage of convictions as compared with the percentage of incidents regarding train groping is large enough to lend support to the statement that 'most offenders don't get punished for groping women on japanese trains'.


SOME of the crimes go unreported. But what's your point here? There's so much batshit craziness going on in this thread that I forget what point you're trying to make.hopefully this makes it easier for you.
you said:

The reason that survey exists is because the police were trying to encourage women to report these crimes.i said

and why were police encouraging women to report the crimes?

BECAUSE THE CRIMES GO UNREPORTEDagain, you're splitting hairs by saying that SOME crimes go unreported. regardless of the quantifier that you use, whether it's A FEW or SOME or MOST or ALL, the fact is that they're still going unreported.

2) regardless of what statistics you use for point 1), the result is only going to be skewed even further towards a large discrepancy between convictions and incidents due to the number of unreported incidents.


I haven't denied that a problem exists.well, you've certainly downplayed its severity, and seemingly to the point of denying it exists. let me show you.

I'm just trying to advocate people to stop viewing Japan as this otherworldly pervert's paradise
If we're going to stick to anecdotal evidence, not a single one of my Japanese female friends has been groped on public transport.
a moral panic about an issue that has an underlying substance of truthwhy is it so difficult for you to accept that...

3) train groping in japan is rampant to the point that it is an expected aspect of public transport and measures have to be taken for its prevention. neither these measures nor these expectations apply in countries where train groping is not as rampant.


Actually I think it's a bit more complicated than that - it's also to make women feel safer, as a response to a perception that groping is likely to happen.hmm, perhaps it's not so difficult. by using the term 'also', are you implying that you accept that women's only carriages were introduced to stop women getting groped?

4) the perception that groping is likely to happen is more due to groping being likely to happen than due to a 'moral panic'.


I'm only bringing it up because about the only point I made in this thread before you dived in to puke up multiquoted craziness is that the existence of women-only carriages is not likely to make mixed-sex carriages any more 'chikan-friendly' than before. actually, if you check your original comment, it was 'how is a mixed-gender carriage chikan-friendly?', which i believe i've adequately answered, right up to the fugu analogy. afterwards, you seem to have changed the intent of your original question to mean 'how does a mixed-gender carriage encourage groping any more than it was before the introduction of women-only carriages?', to which the answer is they don't and what the fuck is the point of that question.

5) mixed-gender carriages do not actively encourage groping, but the introduction of women-only carriages also introduces an onus on women to travel in them

and here's a bonus one for the amusement of onlookers

6) social commentary is racist idiocy

Taurus
February 9th, 2011, 18:39
You are a crazy racist.

Miss_igirisu
February 9th, 2011, 19:04
So... me and Kal, Word and Rupin (new name).. Scrotty and Taurus.. anyone else care to have an argument on here?

Gezora
February 9th, 2011, 19:24
I don't know. My basic feelings are that a majority of Japanese men are cowards, both the chikans and the guys who won't do anything about it. Making a women only car is the same kind of bullshit piece meal solution that you find for a lot of stuff in Japan. A lot of women are at fault, not for getting groped, but for not speaking up about it. Basically everyone involved who could be actively stopping the problem is just creating an incredibly advantageous situation for the chikans.

Azrael
February 9th, 2011, 19:41
if japanese porn has taught be anything its that if you start touching up a high school girl on a crowded train within 5 minutes she'll be on her knees sucking you off.

Scrotty
February 9th, 2011, 19:56
You are a crazy racist.
you ignore all of my questions and call me a racist without explaining why. i guess the only question that begs asking now is this: how do you feel about poor people?

Scrotty and Taurus..
you know, i was wondering about this. see, having a bit of back-and-forth with word on a topic like this wouldn't surprise me. i would be like THIS GIRL SAYS SHE GOT GROPED ON A TRAIN and word would be like SHE WAS PROBABLY SO FAT THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE *NOT* TO GROPE HER and i would be like BUT ITS WOMEN GETTING GROPED ON TRAINS IN JAPAN SEE and word would be like FUCK JAPAN, FAT PEOPLE ARE EVIL and i would be like oh you.

but with taurus, i'm wondering 'who is this taurus guy? surely i would have noticed such a contrary japan apologist taking it to the pumas and mothys and azraels whenever they spouted one of their JAPAN IS NOTHING BUT RACIST IGNORANT PEDOPHILES rants'. then it hit me...

a) of all the underwear you wear on a regular to semi-regular basis, what would you say is the most common color?
b) if there was a public drive to fund a manned mission to mars, would you donate?
c) do you derive any sexual pleasure from the oral stimulation of your nipples?
d) if batman were to fight a dragon with machineguns for arms and that could breathe live grenades instead of fire, who would win? (note: batman has a spear)

a) black
b) no
c) no
d) the dragon

a) correct
b) incorrect
c) trick question, no correct answer
d) incorrect

you have failed my test. unfortunately, we cannot be friends.
taurus hates me because i won't be friends with him. WELL I'M SORRY TAURUS BUT I'M STILL NOT GOING TO BE YOUR FRIEND UNTIL YOU RECOGNIZE THE MARTIAL PROWESS OF BATMAN WITH A SPEAR

Taurus
February 9th, 2011, 20:01
Batman fucks kids.

Antonath
February 9th, 2011, 20:17
there sure is!
d) if batman were to fight a dragon with machineguns for arms and that could breathe live grenades instead of fire, who would win? (note: batman has a spear)
I think the correct answer is "does Batman have time to prepare?"

Part of the chikan problem is the Japanese group-think thing, where most Japanese are incapable of taking action without a group behind them. This is the opposite of the west, where people are more likely to take action the fewer people are around. Hence groping on trains being actively ignored.

Gezora
February 9th, 2011, 20:54
Wait, who is requiring a group to take action? The groper or the bystanders? A crowded train creates the perfect situation for a groper to do what he wants. In fact I suspect that most gropers wouldn't have the balls to outright rape a woman in a dark alley. I suppose the seeming indifference of the other people on the train indirectly encourages them because they think there are no consequences, but I don't think they honestly believe that society is telling them groping is okay, otherwise they'd just do it any old time.

You would think that one guy noticing a groper and going after him on a train would suddenly rally a majority of the car to his cause. I think in most cases in America and other like-minded countries, if someone was bold enough to grope a woman on a train there'd instantly be five guys on him at the drop of hat. Granted the woman would probably be screaming and knocking the shit out of him herself. But I guess that's it. We're talking about Japan, not America.

The whole train groping issue is warning light #935 that Japan is going down the tubes.

MixedNuts
February 9th, 2011, 21:04
Maybe Gez and Nuts will take out their rage on each other?

Nah. It's not "there can only be one!!" time yet.

But after spending the last 30 minutes catching up on this thread, I've decided that the next time I'm on a subway I am going to grab all the cock possible and see what happens.

Gezora
February 9th, 2011, 21:35
Nah. It's not "there can only be one!!" time yet.

But after spending the last 30 minutes catching up on this thread, I've decided that the next time I'm on a subway I am going to grab all the cock possible and see what happens.
I wonder how many female gropers there are. You could probably get away with it.

Miss_igirisu
February 9th, 2011, 23:00
I'm so fat all I have to do it turn around and I grope someone. HEYOO.

oh... wait..

Antonath
February 10th, 2011, 09:44
I think this news item (http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/senior-chiba-police-officer-arrested-for-indecent-exposure-on-train) is relevant to the discussion. Either it happened, which says a lot about why a) no one reports this shit and b) why no one's punished. Or it didn't happen, which means the fake-claim stuff is definitely present.

kalliea
February 10th, 2011, 09:46
"I have no memory of this" = it happened, but he was sooo drunk he didn't mean to flash her.

Given the way Japanese men sit while wearing short shorts, I think a lot of unintentional ball exposure goes on.

MixedNuts
February 10th, 2011, 10:19
I think a lot of intentional ball exposure goes on.

And with the girls too, I lost count of the panty flashes I've seen on trains.

kalliea
February 10th, 2011, 10:33
I think this news item (http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/senior-chiba-police-officer-arrested-for-indecent-exposure-on-train) is relevant to the discussion. Either it happened, which says a lot about why a) no one reports this shit and b) why no one's punished. Or it didn't happen, which means the fake-claim stuff is definitely present.


Damn it Antonath, why did you have to bring a newspaper into this...

Tokyo man arrested for paying schoolgirls 30,000 yen to pose nude for photos � Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion (http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/tokyo-man-arrested-for-paying-schoolgirls-30000-yen-to-pose-nude-for-photos)


I like the little end bit of info at the end...


Oh, and a quick one about child abuse..

3-year-old boy's ankles and wrists bound with rope for 20 hours Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion (http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/3-year-old-boys-ankles-and-wrists-bound-with-rope-for-20-hours)

Azrael
February 10th, 2011, 14:14
all this talk has put me in the mood for a little sharking tonight

MixedNuts
February 10th, 2011, 14:29
Ironically someone I know posted this on fb today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/10/business/global/10manga.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

Eudox
February 10th, 2011, 14:44
Meanwhile, in a widely available new DVD, a real-life Japanese model poses in a tiny white bikini. She makes popcorn in a maid’s costume. She plays with a beach ball while being hosed down with water.
The model, Akari Iinuma, is 13 years old.



WTF!?

MixedNuts
February 10th, 2011, 14:48
13 year-old model or not, NYT used a bad photo for the story.

word
February 19th, 2011, 11:37
Slippery slopes...

YouTube Musician Faces 20 Years in Prison for Clever Editing | HyperVocal (http://hypervocal.com/news/2011/youtube-musician-evan-emory-faces-20-years-in-prison-for-clever-editing/)

5100
February 19th, 2011, 12:02
Slippery slopes...

YouTube Musician Faces 20 Years in Prison for Clever Editing | HyperVocal (http://hypervocal.com/news/2011/youtube-musician-evan-emory-faces-20-years-in-prison-for-clever-editing/)

That's fucking ridiculous.

kalliea
February 19th, 2011, 22:12
WTF? What the hell is wrong with people!?

Antonath
February 21st, 2011, 09:08
Pants-on-head retarded.

Unfortunately, it sounds like there was a little retardation on his part as well - these days, you never, ever, show the faces of young school kids on the internet (if you're from the USA, UK, etc, anyway). Hell, most school websites blur out their own kids. If he'd done that, he'd probably be in a lot less trouble.