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Caramel
April 6th, 2014, 00:48
Hey all,

So, I am an alternate for JET this year, and hence have to continue looking for plan B. Should I not be offered an upgrade, I don't want to give up on Japan altogether, as this would mean going to France where the economy isn't looking so hot. I also, however, don't want to apply to Interac/another ALT/Eikawa thing as it's not what I want to do with my life and compared to JET they don't look all that appealing.

I am far from fluent in any written or spoken Japanese, though I do speak enough to survive. Does anyone know of any companies/jobs that would take a foreigner who speaks shitty Japanese, or am I SOL?

Thanks, good people of the internet.

p.s--Ideally I would be a concept artist/texture painter/character artist in a game or animation studio since that's what I'm interning for and that's what makes me happy, but you know beggars can't be choosers and all that jazz.

TomOmnomnom
April 6th, 2014, 01:22
I'd be interested to know about this too, is there anybody in here who has found a 'professional' job in Japan post-JET. I've a degree in pharmacology and it would be interesting to know what career options might be open to me, although I understand that I'd need a pretty good grasp of Japanese if I were to enter their medicine/cosmetics/drugs industry.

I don't know if you are aware of the site gaijinpot.com, I was looking on there for a time while waiting for my reply from JET. They boast as being the largest English based job-board in Japan (or words to that effect) so you may find something on there. They have also started publishing a weekly podcast, called 'Gpod', and if I recall correctly there was a recent episode talking about other job oppurtunities in Japan, besides teaching. I think it may have been the one mostly about university jobs in Japan, but have a little listen to those if you're interested in Japan and it's culture/pop-culture/current affairs, because it's pretty good.

I do specifically remember the host saying there was a trend for companies in these fields to hire foreign designers etc. Caramel, I assume you have qualifications in the field you're looking to pursue? -'cause y'know that'd help lol.

Jiggit
April 6th, 2014, 01:35
I am far from fluent in any written or spoken Japanese, though I do speak enough to survive. Does anyone know of any companies/jobs that would take a foreigner who speaks shitty Japanese, or am I SOL?

Gonna be brutally honest, your chances are slim to none. Think about it this way; would a company in your own country hire a person who could barely speak a word of English? Why would they do so? The individual would have to possess some kind of qualification or skill that made them almost uniquely valuable. Heck, we wouldn't even employ language teaching assistants who couldn't speak English fairly fluently.

Even if you are a graphic designer (or pharmacologist), ask yourself the same question; would a US (or whatever) company employ a foreigner with no English skills?

If you want to get a job in Japan and don't speak much Japanese then English teaching in some form is probably the only option for 99% of people. Sucks, but there it is.

Caramel
April 6th, 2014, 02:12
Thanks--I figured as much, unfortunately, but was worth asking.

coop52
April 6th, 2014, 08:39
You pretty much need JLPT N2 level Japanese at the barest minimum to get non-English teaching jobs, and even then you won't find anything unless you have skills in something that's high in demand (like programming). It's also harder to job hunt for non-English teaching stuff from outside of Japan. It might be a good idea to go ahead and apply for a teaching job to get your visa, study like crazy in your free time, and look for jobs once you get here.

I will also say from my own job hunting experience that even if you have Japanese skills, the market really sucks right now, and it's hard to find stuff unless you know someone. It's also a lot harder to find stuff in the middle of the year since most hiring is done in February/March to start off the new fiscal year in April.

therealwindycity
April 7th, 2014, 11:17
Another option is to apply to a Japanese company or large international company with branches in Japan and request to be transferred after a few years. It's less of a guarantee, but career-wise it's much more stable. This is how most of the non-Japanese speaking people I know who aren't ALTs got here.

tealparadise
April 8th, 2014, 09:47
Another option is to apply to a Japanese company or large international company with branches in Japan and request to be transferred after a few years. It's less of a guarantee, but career-wise it's much more stable. This is how most of the non-Japanese speaking people I know who aren't ALTs got here.

Any chance of getting some guidance on how to find these companies/positions? I don't really have desire to live in Japan any longer, but ideally I'd like to settle into a job with some possibilities for travel or living abroad. You always get this advice- find a company with international branches... but isn't that most large companies? And I'm sure 99% of people working at Ford, for example, don't have the option to just hop over to the China branch...

What kind of skill set (apart from language, that's a given) or career-track will get you on the path to do this? What are these ex-pats' actual positions?

Sorry, I'm out in the inaka so I've never met anyone who wasn't doing the ALT gig.

therealwindycity
April 8th, 2014, 11:16
I wish I could point to a particular skill set, but the expats I know have done fairly diverse things - banking management, marketing for Google, web design, fashion, antiques/furniture ... it really depends on where your particular skills lie. What did you get your degree in? TBH you're going to have to do a lot of research on your own - look for companies that interest you generally and then check to see which ones have Japanese branches.

You might be surprised how easy it is to get transferred overseas sometimes though; most of those people didn't have Japan-specific skills (and one who spoke perfect Japanese hardly even ended up using it at work), just a desire to work here.

Jiggit
April 8th, 2014, 11:20
I'd assume most people working at a company wouldn't want to get transferred to the other side of the world so it might even be relatively easy if said company has a lot of staff over here.

tealparadise
April 8th, 2014, 12:32
Yeah I suppose the problem is that my scope isn't narrow enough to start looking at companies critically. Time to decide what I actually want to do, instead of how I want to do it.

UPGRAYEDD
April 8th, 2014, 13:54
I'm feeling generous today and will give my tips.

Ask away

(I work in the HR department of a major Japanese internet company - I mainly do MBA/Executive Recruiting and other special projects)

yingyangryder
April 8th, 2014, 14:10
Screw it, I`ll ask.

How did you find the job you are currently in? Online, word of mouth etc.
Have you taken the JLPT? If so, what level are you?
What is recruiting like? I have seen many many postings for entry level recruiting jobs, whilst this is not exactly my dream job, it seems to be easiest way to get a job bar teaching in Japan. (Just my opinion).

Many thanks!

mrcharisma
April 8th, 2014, 14:17
I'd assume most people working at a company wouldn't want to get transferred to the other side of the world so it might even be relatively easy if said company has a lot of staff over here.

I'd agree with this. Popping over to China or wherever seems lke an exciting prospect to the kind of people who frequent this forum, but in real life 90% of the workforce would never dare step outside the confines of their hometown.

Opportunities to travel are everywhere. I worked at a relatively tiny company back home which had a sales office in Japan (staffed by a former Jet), so you'd be surprised at what you can find with a bit of research.

UPGRAYEDD
April 8th, 2014, 14:48
Screw it, I`ll ask.

How did you find the job you are currently in? Online, word of mouth etc.

I converted an internship into a full time position. I got the internship through a combination of luck, persistence, flexibility, and contacts I made during my job hunt.


Have you taken the JLPT? If so, what level are you?

I passed the N2 back in 2010. My speaking level is a solid B2 on the CEFR scale.



What is recruiting like? I have seen many many postings for entry level recruiting jobs, whilst this is not exactly my dream job, it seems to be easiest way to get a job bar teaching in Japan. (Just my opinion).

The type of recruiting I do is not the same as the type of jobs you see in Japan. Those jobs you see are typically for headhunting companies and they basically just cold-call busy people all day. Some of these jobs can be okay, they give you a solid foundation in sales but from what I see, it takes a certain type of person to do this work and the pay is never anywhere near as advertised.

I don't work for a headhunting company. I work for a major Japanese company and just happen to be currently assigned to the recruiting section of HR. I'm involved in formulating general recruiting strategy, planning campus visits, giving tons of company introductions, trolling linkedin all day, conducting interviews, plus a shit ton of other work. I never cold call.

Many thanks![/QUOTE]

Welcome

ihatefall
April 8th, 2014, 16:03
I was an ALT 2006-2008. I went back to a shattered US economy and started working at high end fashion designer's boutique, something I thought would be temporary. The money was good (40% more than I made on JET plus free clothes and more importantly free health care for me and my "domestic partner" GF) so I stuck around. I got a couple promotions and then corporate walked in one day when I was helping some Japanese clients in 100% Japanese. That put me on the radar. When the Tokyo liaison decided to move back home, I got asked to come to Japan.

I started in the HR department helping the training team but I feel it was a waste of my resources (it reminded me of being an ALT too much and I hated the training manager.) I then moved into an "HR project coordinator" position that was mostly ad hoc stuff; helping the web team open the ecomm site, opening some stores etc. As of 4/1 I am now on the PR team and I am loving it.

I took the JLPT 2kyuu back in 2008 and failed not by much. I haven't bothered since. While there are 2 other gaijin in my office, I have to speak Japanese and read Japanese 80-90% of the time. More so now then before. Almost none of the magazine, stylists or 'talent' speak any English. (I have had to re-study some Keigo, god I hate Keigo.)
So with me, it was hard work and good luck.

There is the career-forum the biggest of which is in Boston. (You will need an N2 or better). You will be treated like a 新入社員, and the pay is pretty basic at first.

If you're from a country that does the working holiday visa thing, you can come over on that and try to get a job but you need some Japanese skills if you expect to stay. One of gaijin in my office came over 18 years ago and got a job at a department store. (She knew all the joyo kanji and took 3 years of intensive Japanese in college. She could read the newspaper when she got here.)


There are opportunities. Most folks end up being lifer ALTs, or working as head hunters. If you're a hard worker and study your butt off, you can get something better.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Be-ran
April 8th, 2014, 22:19
I converted an internship into a full time position. I got the internship through a combination of luck, persistence, flexibility, and contacts I made during my job hunt.

Thanks for taking the time to reply UPGRAYEDD- did you get your internship prior to arriving in Japan, or post?

I've a degree and Masters in Human Resources as well as 4ish years experience; however I've low level Japanese Language and no experience within working with a Japanese H.R. environment.

I've been lucky enough to be short listed for this years JET intake; apart from working on my Japanese Language, can you recommend anything else while out there in order to make myself more employable?

ihatefall
April 8th, 2014, 23:34
Thanks for taking the time to reply UPGRAYEDD- did you get your internship prior to arriving in Japan, or post?


1.) I love that your profile is all Sasha Grey'd out.
2.) I believe that UPGRAYEDD was an ALT in Shikoku
3.) Be-ran, if you have experience in HR, you know as well as I do, that you really need strong communication skills. Even when I was in HR as a Training coordinator, the staff would ask me some pretty difficult questions. Like how to deal with in store disputes, disputes between store staff and other stores staff in the same department building, how to motivate lazy staff, etc. The same way you have to dance around the subject with word poetry in your home country, you'd have to do that here. (But its extra hard)
4.)Labor laws are really strict in Japan. The internship thing here is often a "we'll try this person out for a year as an intern, then we'll hire them" thing. The reason for that is that during the first year, its pretty easy to let anyone go for any reason. After that it's pretty hard to fire someone. But if you're an intern first, they get the intern time and the first year to try you out before they buy you.

I'd say in your case, stay up to date with your field. Learn Japanese, learn the ins and outs of the office and its VERY DIFFERENT ways of doing things. You might find you don't like office work in Japan or you might love it.

One thing my team likes and hates about me is that I have a different way of seeing things. I challenge them in new ways but sometimes they don't want to be bothered. In my situation, I am from the Home Office so my say and thought has a lot of weight behind. (It doesn't hurt that the CEO hand picked me to come out here.) You might find that you'd be in a situation that your ideas and way of doing things would be "wrong". I would highly recommend working for a branch of a foreign company instead of pure Japanese company. (Although places like rakuten and uniqlo will want people like you that can explain to the foreign based staff about the differences between Japan and your home country. Labor law wise and HR wise.)

I am rambling...... time for bed

Be-ran
April 9th, 2014, 00:30
1.) I love that your profile is all Sasha Grey'd out.

I've worked in H.R. too long; pretty cynical with "anonymity" Lol. I don't mind sharing though!



2.) I believe that UPGRAYEDD was an ALT in Shikoku

Pretty creepy you know that.. is everyone super close on this forum? :P



3.) Be-ran, if you have experience in HR, you know as well as I do, that you really need strong communication skills. Even when I was in HR as a Training coordinator, the staff would ask me some pretty difficult questions. Like how to deal with in store disputes, disputes between store staff and other stores staff in the same department building, how to motivate lazy staff, etc. The same way you have to dance around the subject with word poetry in your home country, you'd have to do that here. (But its extra hard)

Absolutely, word poetry is a nice way of putting it but honestly a lot advice, especially at senior level (although i'm loathe to admit it) has been winging it. Although that's as much my inexperience as H.R. as a job.



4.)Labor laws are really strict in Japan. The internship thing here is often a "we'll try this person out for a year as an intern, then we'll hire them" thing. The reason for that is that during the first year, its pretty easy to let anyone go for any reason. After that it's pretty hard to fire someone. But if you're an intern first, they get the intern time and the first year to try you out before they buy you.

Coming from an Ireland / U.K. background; we're pretty legislative too so i'm not altogether too uncomfortable with that. It's just trying to get a level of reading the moon runes and getting to a level where I feel comfortable enough to understand exactly what's happening.

Good idea with keeping with more international companies- I don't think I'd feel confident enough in a purely Japanese organisation!

Thanks for taking the time to ramble!

ihatefall
April 9th, 2014, 01:03
I am not a lurker but I have a good memory for details like that (I even remember the prefecture because my buddy was an ALT in the same prefecture.) I remember skus and style numbers from 4 years ago.

Names on the other hand.....I forget them by the time the person says the last syllable. Something I have to work on for this PR role.

Ya HR is definitely about winging it there is not "users guide" for that sort of thing. No "if A than B", you never know if you're gonna come back to work to a phone call from a crying staff member being a complete baby over something so trivial or some thing major like drug use on the job by the best manager in the company. You can't plan for it, but it's about being able to wipe out those pretty dance around the burning bush phrases at a moments notice.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

scarreddragon
May 26th, 2014, 13:01
Just another possible job to add to the list is working in a big brand-name hotel or the hospitality industry in a higher-level capacity (obviously you'll work your way up). My step mom works as a manager at a Hilton hotel as a base, but she's also been sent all over the country, as well as two 3 month stints in China and Egypt. She also gets awesome discounts when she travels at hotels in the brand. It is a job I'm considering if I ever move back home!

patjs
March 12th, 2015, 02:56
I know this is an old thread but was browsing and wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

As ihatefall said above, I also highly, highly recommend that if you stay in Japan you try to get into a foreign company rather than a Japanese one. I know some Japanese companies are changing the way they work, like literally pushing people out the door at 6:00 on "no overtime" days, but if you are from a Western culture you are going to have a major problem trying to be a Japanese office worker in a traditional Japanese corporate environment.

Also, I was naive enough to expect that the Japanese work culture wouldn't be so strong in the US branches of a Japanese company but I was wrong. Most of the Japanese staff will continue to work as if they are still in Japan. American staff will generally not play the salaryman game, but then in the end you are back in an ALT-like situation where you feel like you are somehow being a bad employee by going home on time. Whatever your field I urge you to seriously consider if you want to work for a Japanese company.

PuddingHead
March 12th, 2015, 20:42
Most of the Japanese staff will continue to work as if they are still in Japan. American staff will generally not play the salaryman game, but then in the end you are back in an ALT-like situation where you feel like you are somehow being a bad employee by going home on time. Whatever your field I urge you to seriously consider if you want to work for a Japanese company.

Agreed. I work for a Japanese company here in the US and I would not recommend it unless you love overtime. Most of my coworkers stay 5+ hours after their shifts end, and they don't get paid for them nor do they get time adjustments. It's nice getting omiyage every time they go home on vacation, but if I ever leave on time I get a nice, cold glare on my way out.

patjs
March 13th, 2015, 07:14
Agreed. I work for a Japanese company here in the US and I would not recommend it unless you love overtime. Most of my coworkers stay 5+ hours after their shifts end, and they don't get paid for them nor do they get time adjustments. It's nice getting omiyage every time they go home on vacation, but if I ever leave on time I get a nice, cold glare on my way out.

In my old job we had a new Japanese boss come over. He was so clueless he actually told someone "too early" when he left on time.

uthinkimlost?
March 13th, 2015, 08:16
In my old job we had a new Japanese boss come over. He was so clueless he actually told someone "too early" when he left on time.

*jazz hands* "See ya!" *side step out*

Zolrak 22
March 13th, 2015, 13:38
*jazz hands* "See ya!" *side step out*
http://i.imgur.com/4Jtn9xS.jpg

?

uthinkimlost?
March 13th, 2015, 13:52
http://i.imgur.com/4Jtn9xS.jpg

?

Yep. Had to borrow (and delouse) Haitch's hat for that number.

patjs
March 13th, 2015, 23:11
*jazz hands* "See ya!" *side step out*

That's not far off from what we would all do at the end of the day. :lol:

But actually that guy, like many others, realized really quickly how absolutely insane the work culture is in Japan. They soon realize that most Americans work quickly and efficiently within the working hours most of the time, so eventually they accept that they are the only people sad enough to sit around the office every night until 9pm "showing their effort."

UPGRAYEDD
March 16th, 2015, 09:41
It aint any better at American companies in Japan. Wherever you have a large group of Japanese people you will have all the BS that comes with Japanese business culture. There are very few exceptions to this rule. It doesn't make any difference that a few key big bosses are foreigners.

patjs
March 17th, 2015, 06:46
It aint any better at American companies in Japan. Wherever you have a large group of Japanese people you will have all the BS that comes with Japanese business culture. There are very few exceptions to this rule. It doesn't make any difference that a few key big bosses are foreigners.

I guess I was wrong... that's disappointing.

So Americans and other foreigners do the whole stay at work til all hours thing?

UPGRAYEDD
March 17th, 2015, 13:58
I guess I was wrong... that's disappointing.

So Americans and other foreigners do the whole stay at work til all hours thing?

If they are local hires, they will be expected to work the same as any other Japanese staff.

Of course, foreigners can usually do the whole gaijin smash thing and get away with going home early (especially if they are 正社員 and can't be fired) but they really shouldn't be surprised if they find themselves consistently getting passed up for promotion and see their careers stall out in comparison with Japanese peers.

Expat managers will probably be very closely aligned with the corporate culture as it exists in the head office and will be expected to showcase those norms in the Japanese office. If it's a company with a culture of long working hours (Amazon, IBM, any consulting company), they will probably be putting in more hours than the Japanese staff. If it's a more laid back company, they will probably be telling the Japanese managers to send people home earlier. But Japanese culture is strong and the allure of showing more やる気 is hard to resist.

Tyr
March 18th, 2015, 03:27
With the international company I currently work for the Japan office is infamous for doing things its own way more than any other country.

patjs
March 19th, 2015, 03:41
If they are local hires, they will be expected to work the same as any other Japanese staff.

Of course, foreigners can usually do the whole gaijin smash thing and get away with going home early (especially if they are 正社員 and can't be fired) but they really shouldn't be surprised if they find themselves consistently getting passed up for promotion and see their careers stall out in comparison with Japanese peers.

Expat managers will probably be very closely aligned with the corporate culture as it exists in the head office and will be expected to showcase those norms in the Japanese office. If it's a company with a culture of long working hours (Amazon, IBM, any consulting company), they will probably be putting in more hours than the Japanese staff. If it's a more laid back company, they will probably be telling the Japanese managers to send people home earlier. But Japanese culture is strong and the allure of showing more やる気 is hard to resist.

Thanks for the insight. Honestly I wasn't positive as much of what I've heard is through the grapevine, and the only companies I have experience with are not Western by any means.

I would imagine like you said it depends more heavily on the culture of the company.



Of course, foreigners can usually do the whole gaijin smash thing and get away with going home early (especially if they are 正社員 and can't be fired) but they really shouldn't be surprised if they find themselves consistently getting passed up for promotion and see their careers stall out in comparison with Japanese peers.

Can I ask what you mean by going home early? Are we talking "early" by Japanese standards as in like 6:00pm?

UPGRAYEDD
March 19th, 2015, 11:56
I would imagine like you said it depends more heavily on the culture of the company.


It's just like JET where every situation is different.



Can I ask what you mean by going home early? Are we talking "early" by Japanese standards as in like 6:00pm?
[/quote]

I guess I mean by Japanese standards. So basically limiting overtime to less than 15 hours a month. I don't actually mean a sub-40 hour workweek or anything like that.

Tyr
March 21st, 2015, 02:04
At any serious job anywhere in the world you will be still expected to do some over time. Often quite a lot. The difference with Japan is that you unofficially have to do over time just because. Sitting around reading the paper and all that.
Also flexitime is an unknown word in Japan.

patjs
March 24th, 2015, 04:08
At any serious job anywhere in the world you will be still expected to do some over time. Often quite a lot. The difference with Japan is that you unofficially have to do over time just because. Sitting around reading the paper and all that.
Also flexitime is an unknown word in Japan.

Right, necessary overtime that you are compensated for either by OT pay or a higher salary is one thing. Japanese companies like to come here and hire people "exempt" at shit pay because they can get away with it legally, then slowly try to pressure you into working more and more overtime.

Also, for those of you who went straight from JET to working in Japan I'm not sure you realize how little if any OT a lot of people do in the US.

Ananasboat
March 24th, 2015, 09:16
Also, for those of you who went straight from JET to working in Japan I'm not sure you realize how little if any OT a lot of people do in the US.

At one of my jobs in college, my boss would hand 2 people duties for about 4 people. It was a bakery, and it went well into the night (about 2 am most nights) and these two girls would come in at 8, would man the counter, make the doughnuts, wash the dishes and scrub every inch of the bakery. That would have been fine for two people, but boss didn't like having to pay two girls who worked in the dead of night, so she cut it down to one person after 11 which was when the place closed to customers. Then, when girls were staying into 3am, they started asking for OT. Boss says, "I'm not paying you OT for work you should have finished at 1."

OT is like a unicorn. When you see it, it's magical.

Jiggit
March 24th, 2015, 09:19
Also, for those of you who went straight from JET to working in Japan I'm not sure you realize how little if any OT a lot of people do in the US.

Americans work longer hours than most other English speaking peoples.

Ananasboat
March 24th, 2015, 09:49
Americans work longer hours than most other English speaking peoples.

Yup, and our bosses more often than not have a "no OT rule," meaning if you're overworked and stay late it's your fault and you don't get OT. Bad employee, bad!

coop52
March 24th, 2015, 15:27
Right, necessary overtime that you are compensated for either by OT pay or a higher salary is one thing. Japanese companies like to come here and hire people "exempt" at shit pay because they can get away with it legally, then slowly try to pressure you into working more and more overtime.

Also, for those of you who went straight from JET to working in Japan I'm not sure you realize how little if any OT a lot of people do in the US.

There are companies here that expect you to clock out at your official end of work time, and continue working. One of my JTEs does it of his own volition because the boss didn't like him staying late and racking up overtime. This kind of thing is illegal in the US, or at least it is in GA. When I worked at a supermarket, we had to take our aprons and name tags off and weren't allowed to do anything that could be construed as work once we clocked out. And, I rarely had to stay more than 15-20 minutes past my scheduled time at that job.

I know salaried work is different, but both of my parents are salaried and rarely have to work more than their scheduled time. And they both get 2 days off a week, where here usually only Sunday is guaranteed. That's a large part of why I'm leaving. I couldn't handle the 6 day, 60-70 hour work week for shitty pay with only a hint of a chance at a pay raise in a few years' time.

patjs
March 26th, 2015, 23:56
Americans work longer hours than most other English speaking peoples.

True but most legitimate (I'm not saying all) companies are paying you for OT or you are making a higher salary. In your average say, inside sales job at a corporation, the guys making 35k doing office work are not working til 9pm every night for no additional pay.


Yup, and our bosses more often than not have a "no OT rule," meaning if you're overworked and stay late it's your fault and you don't get OT. Bad employee, bad!
Yeah that's not legal. It sounds like this was a part time-type college job? I'm talking about full time jobs. I know there are some shady jobs like this but it's not really the norm.



I know salaried work is different, but both of my parents are salaried and rarely have to work more than their scheduled time. And they both get 2 days off a week, where here usually only Sunday is guaranteed. That's a large part of why I'm leaving. I couldn't handle the 6 day, 60-70 hour work week for shitty pay with only a hint of a chance at a pay raise in a few years' time.

Yes this is generally how it is for your average American. If you aren't management or C-level, you aren't working till all hours of the night. I know there are some exceptions, but I'm going off of what I see everyday and through years of working here now with tons of different people. They aren't at the office past 5:00 generally.

I work currently in a very large office building with a lot of companies. By 5:30 the place is basically a ghost town. If I stay until 6:00 or later, there are honestly almost no cars that don't belong to a Japanese person.

webstaa
March 27th, 2015, 08:29
There are companies here that expect you to clock out at your official end of work time, and continue working. One of my JTEs does it of his own volition because the boss didn't like him staying late and racking up overtime. This kind of thing is illegal in the US, or at least it is in GA. When I worked at a supermarket, we had to take our aprons and name tags off and weren't allowed to do anything that could be construed as work once we clocked out. And, I rarely had to stay more than 15-20 minutes past my scheduled time at that job.

It's illegal for pretty much everybody but technologists - that is both programmers and IT specialists. Several states have loopholes just to fuck them over.

starfish
March 27th, 2015, 10:48
It's illegal for pretty much everybody but technologists - that is both programmers and IT specialists. Several states have loopholes just to fuck them over.

Eh...kinda. There is a small ray of hope here though.

Programmers and sysadmins are exempt from being paid overtime due to the nature of their work, yes.

But in general, it is 100% a violation of *federal* law to have hourly/non-exempt employees clock out and continue working. It is not a good idea for an employer to do this to salaried/exempt classes either though, because it violates federal law if it turns out those salaried/exempt classifications weren't kosher. It would be better to just treat them as salaried and not have them keep track of their time at all!

Suppose ACME wants a janitor that they can work to death. So they hire some guy, give him a $15,000 yearly salary and tell him congrats-- "you're our new software engineer/manager/sysadmin/CEO. Here's your mop and bucket. Get to work."

Giving someone a specific title does not make them ineligible for OT. My example was dramatic but it applies just the same to a "programmer" who spends 10% of his time coding and 90% doing clerical work. If ACME has this guy clocking out and working an additional 20-30 hours a week, due to the *real* nature of his work, the company is in violation of the FLSA for both the hourly and salaried classfications and can be sued for either reason for OT wages withheld in addition to damages.