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Bluesuntzu
May 7th, 2014, 17:11
So I am going to quit Jet this upcoming august and my school is offering to pay my return ticket as long as I do it within a month of ending work.

The process goes like this:

1. I pick a date.
2. They consult a travel agent and get a quote.
3. I buy the ticket from that quote with my own money.
4. They reimburse me.
5. I go home.

Here is what I am wondering: is it possible for me to change things up between step 4 and 5 to better fit my schedule?

Let's say I want to stay 3 months on a tourist visa after I finish and THEN go home. Could I wait until I get reimbursed, then, change the date of the ticket with the travel agent (perhaps by paying a fee), then fly home 3 months later?

Or, what if I book a ticket now, get reimbursed, and then in a month just decide I don't want to fly home? Can I just let the airplane fly with an empty seat?

Or how about, if I'm really unscrupulous, what if I just cancel the ticket after I get reimbursed and try and pocket the money?

What are people's experiences with this?

Antonath
May 7th, 2014, 17:19
...my school is offering to pay my return ticket as long as I do it within a month of ending work.
They're not offering to, they're required to, by both your employment contract and the agreement your BoE has with CLAIR. This means that the process will very much be set in stone, and trying to fiddle the system in your favour will result in first teeth-sucking and chottos, and then polite refusal.

Bluesuntzu
May 7th, 2014, 17:34
They're not offering to, they're required to, by both your employment contract and the agreement your BoE has with CLAIR. This means that the process will very much be set in stone, and trying to fiddle the system in your favour will result in first teeth-sucking and chottos, and then polite refusal.

To be clear, I wasn't planning on asking permission for any of the above plans.

It seems that once my school gets the receipt and reimburses me that is the end of their involvement, just like the expenses for the rest of my business trips. What I'm asking is: once they are out of the picture, what's to stop me from modifying the arrangements with the travel agent? I am the travel agent's customer, I used my own money to buy the ticket, it seems like I would be able to modify my flight after its purchased.

yingyangryder
May 7th, 2014, 21:07
To be clear, I wasn't planning on asking permission for any of the above plans.

It seems that once my school gets the receipt and reimburses me that is the end of their involvement, just like the expenses for the rest of my business trips. What I'm asking is: once they are out of the picture, what's to stop me from modifying the arrangements with the travel agent? I am the travel agent's customer, I used my own money to buy the ticket, it seems like I would be able to modify my flight after its purchased.

While I don't know, that's quite a shitty thing to do. I imagine (someone jump in who has done this) you have to have a flight booked with a set date to get the tourist visa when you head down to immigration. If you could change your flight after you get the visa, no idea, never tried but if you get found out, expect to pay the full price of your flight ticket and don't expect good references from your employers should you need references from them in the future.

Gizmotech
May 7th, 2014, 22:17
Umm, Nothing is stopping you from doing that however keep this big thing in mind:

They are only required to provide the return ticket assuming you complete all of the requirements as well.

IF you violate those terms, they could cause problems regarding your pension refund, they could charge you for the ticket due to your non-compliance with the contract, and then potentially report you to the policy for not paying said bill (which then ends up as a record against you for any future visa status).

I know that is a lot of IFs, but you are agreeing to a certain set of terms when you accept the return airfare. If you do not intend to return during that time (the one month window), inform your contracting agency that you do not need the return airfare and purchase your own ticket for a later date.

Randomgirl
May 7th, 2014, 23:01
Not sure if it is the same for all contracting organizations, but when I left, they had a whole committee of people meet me at my house for a good-bye ceremony. Some were friends, but some were from the BOE, and they actually drove me to the airport and sent me off - carrying my luggage, making sure I got through security ok. This was not an optional part of the package. I am guessing that if your CO has a number of JETs or if you are prefectural, this isn't the case, but I could be wrong. In my small town though, it would have been very hard to sneak away. ESID?!

Bluesuntzu
May 8th, 2014, 01:22
First of all, regarding the "shittyness" of this thing to do. I think even I am not capable of just pocketing the money, that really seems bad. But as for whether or not I leave Japan 1 month after or 3 months after i quit, I don't feel like that's a moral issue. What difference does it make to my school? It costs the same amount. It's not illegal for me to stay 3 months. The only difference is that it may be more convenient for me.

As for the meeting me at the airport bit, there is an option where the school just pays for a flight from tokyo (not where I am located) so they wouldn't see me off for that leg of the trip. After I leave work on my last day, I probably won't see any of the school personnel again in my life. I won't even be in the same town. Aside from the school calling the travel agent after I leave, (and even then, I don't know if they would give customer information to a third party, after all, I paid for the ticket) there would be no way for them to find out.

Anyway, its clear there is some risk here, I guess I'll have to weigh that.

Lianwen
May 8th, 2014, 03:53
There was a girl in my prefecture who did that = pocketed the money and never left the prefecture (accepted a new job) and her CO found out. It actually created a scandal and a lot of our prefectural JETs are told to get out/forced to use plane tickets on the exact day their contract ends, now, even though the PAs have been fighting to have COs recognize the one-month grace period.

It's become an all or nothing attitude.

Also...you'd be surprised on how much companies are willing to give away here if your supervisor calls "on your behalf". Even though you'd expect them not to give out that information, I wouldn't be surprised if they did, especially if your CO is getting the quote for you on your behalf.

Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I'd just do it. Just make sure your representative for your pension is not your CO.

Antonath
May 8th, 2014, 08:43
You'd be surprised on how much companies are willing to give away here if your supervisor calls "on your behalf".
This. I've heard of supervisors getting financial information, travel arrangements... Probably even medical information. Finding out you changed your departure date is not a hard task for them, if they want to enquire.


Just make sure your representative for your pension is not your CO.
That's an excellent point. Does the pension refund process ask the date you left Japan, because they'd find out that way.

Also, saying "it costs the same amount" is outright wrong. August is an expensive month to fly; as soon as the calendar changes from July to August, it adds at least 20,000 yen to the cost of my flight home. Leaving months later means you are effectively costing your school/BoE hundreds of dollars extra at a time they have to fly in your replacement and pay for Tokyo Orientation.

ihatefall
May 8th, 2014, 10:33
I don't think this is a shitty thing to do. In fact, my friend is Nagoya was told they had to buy his flight and gave him instructions on how to get a refund if he decided to stay. If you are buying the ticket yourself, buy it one month out and tell them you are planning on traveling around Japan "to see the beauty of their beautiful country, Japan". MAKE SURE YOU CAN CHANGE THE DATE. Usually when you buy it through a Japanese travel agency its super expensive to do so.
I think that used to be a pretty standard to flip your expensive one way ticket to a cheap round trip ticket and pocket the cash before 2005.

Even if your BOE tries to deny your pension refund one call to CLAIR will set them straight.

word
May 8th, 2014, 12:58
I don't think it's a sh*tty thing to do, but as it may technically be a violation of your contract, it might be a bit shady. I suppose it's even possible (albeit ridiculously unlikely) that your BoE could pursue legal action against you to recover the cost of the plane ticket. They're only obligated to pay for it if you leave within 30 days of the end of your contract.

I dunno, though; why not just bargain with 'em a bit? A leaving friend did; they found a quote; he showed 'em a cheaper ticket that allowed him to visit SK and Vietnam on the way home. They ended up just giving him the money. Of course, they totally loved him, so ymmv.

Bluesuntzu
May 8th, 2014, 13:21
Also, saying "it costs the same amount" is outright wrong. August is an expensive month to fly; as soon as the calendar changes from July to August, it adds at least 20,000 yen to the cost of my flight home. Leaving months later means you are effectively costing your school/BoE hundreds of dollars extra at a time they have to fly in your replacement and pay for Tokyo Orientation.

I dont think you understand what i am proposing. I want to buy a ticket within the time range my school is obligated to pay for. After i take the money for that fixed cost, i want to call up the travel agent and change the departure date by paying the extra fees out of pocket.

Ergo, the school pays only what they are obligated to.

ihatefall
May 8th, 2014, 13:24
You can only get away with that if you pay for it, otherwise they will be notified.

You really want to stay in Japan without a job unpaid for 90 days? Why not just do another year on JET?


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uthinkimlost?
May 8th, 2014, 13:27
You can only get away with that if you pay for it, otherwise they will be notified.

You really want to stay in Japan without a job unpaid for 90 days? Why not just do another year on JET?


1. I pick a date.
2. They consult a travel agent and get a quote.
3. I buy the ticket from that quote with my own money.
4. They reimburse me.
5. I go home.


Personally, I see no huge ethical issue with this process. I see the departure flight as a kind of bonus to be paid at the end of a contract.

Antonath
May 8th, 2014, 13:36
But as for whether or not I leave Japan 1 month after or 3 months after i quit, I don't feel like that's a moral issue. What difference does it make to my school? It costs the same amount. It's not illegal for me to stay 3 months. The only difference is that it may be more convenient for me.


I dont think you understand what i am proposing. I want to buy a ticket within the time range my school is obligated to pay for. After i take the money for that fixed cost, i want to call up the travel agent and change the departure date by paying the extra fees out of pocket.

Ergo, the school pays only what they are obligated to.

I understand perfectly what you're proposing. The school is obligated to pay for your ticket if you leave within a month. You want to leave after three months and still have them pay. That is known as "fraud".

Also, even if they were obligated to pay after three months, you would still be costing them extra by asking for an August ticket when prices in October are cheaper. Of course, if they still had to pay after three months, that wouldn't be an issue.

ihatefall
May 8th, 2014, 13:41
So you'd have no problem if he just asked to fly out in October? No where in there does he think that he is going to pocket the money. He thinks it will cost him money out of pocket. Where is the fraud?


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word
May 8th, 2014, 13:53
Contract legally requires Party A to pay for Party B's plane ticket, so long as a certain time requirement is met. Party B says, "Cool, will do." Party A pays for said plane ticket. Party B then violates the time requirement.

I dunno if it legally qualifies as fraud, but it's certainly a form of dishonesty.

uthinkimlost?
May 8th, 2014, 13:56
Contract legally requires Party A to pay for Party B's plane ticket, so long as a certain time requirement is met. Party B says, "Cool, will do." Party A pays for said plane ticket. Party B then violates the time requirement.

I dunno if it legally qualifies as fraud, but it's certainly a form of dishonesty.

If the contract stipulated that party A give B a PS3, and B exchanged the PS3 for a store credit and bought a PS4 instead, is that problematic?

word
May 8th, 2014, 13:59
If the contract stipulated that party A give B a PS3, and B exchanged the PS3 for a store credit and bought a PS4 instead, is that problematic?
Not an accurate comparison.

It would be more like... Contract stipulates Party A gives Party B a new, heavily-branded snowboard on the condition that Party B use it for a year. Party B says, "Sweet; I will," gets said snowboard, then sells it and buys a different one the next week. Does Party A not have the right to get their panties in a bunch about this?

mrcharisma
May 8th, 2014, 14:01
Who uses travel agents these days anyway. Is it not significantly cheaper and more convenient to just go on Skyscanner and book it yourself there and then?

Regardless, I think we can all agree that the OP is nothing more than a common thief.

Gizmotech
May 8th, 2014, 14:02
Util, only if there wasn't a requirement to actually keep the PS3. In this case there is a requirement to actually leave, attached to the plane ticket, and that requirement to leave has a specific time frame.

Keep in mind, your health coverage will only exist in Japan until the date negotiated to leave the country, afterwards you're on your own.

Gizmotech
May 8th, 2014, 14:04
Who uses travel agents these days anyway. Is it not significantly cheaper and more convenient to just go on Skyscanner and book it yourself there and then?

Regardless, I think we can all agree that the OP is a thief.

Ah, you gotta use the travel agent for the quote, (Bureaucracy) not necessarily for purchasing the ticket itself if it's paid for by you and reimbursed without receipt.

Antonath
May 8th, 2014, 14:04
So you'd have no problem if he just asked to fly out in October? No where in there does he think that he is going to pocket the money. He thinks it will cost him money out of pocket. Where is the fraud?
Cost of a ticket: hundreds of dollars, maybe over a thousand.
Cost of changing a ticket: tens of dollars.

OP, if you want to try this, that's fine. Good luck to you. But don't try and say that the BoE would be paying the same either way. At the very best it's dishonest. And if "lying to secure financial gain" isn't the definition of fraud, I'm not sure what is.

Ini
May 8th, 2014, 14:09
wouldn't the BOE get suspicious when you present them with a quote for an open ticket instead of a much cheaper fixed one?

uthinkimlost?
May 8th, 2014, 15:03
Util, only if there wasn't a requirement to actually keep the PS3. In this case there is a requirement to actually leave, attached to the plane ticket, and that requirement to leave has a specific time frame.

Keep in mind, your health coverage will only exist in Japan until the date negotiated to leave the country, afterwards you're on your own.

Reading my (english version) contract at the moment. I never noticed the date restriction, but it does look like you have a one month window at end of contract within which to book a ticket.

Why doesn'T OP just book his flight for the end of August and nenkyuu through July? Two months and perfectly legit.

Gizmotech
May 8th, 2014, 15:32
Reading my (english version) contract at the moment. I never noticed the date restriction, but it does look like you have a one month window at end of contract within which to book a ticket.

Why doesn'T OP just book his flight for the end of August and nenkyuu through July? Two months and perfectly legit.

Exactly, it's in the model contract, so it should be in everyone's contract. They're also pretty specific about how that flight is supposed to go, with the whole direct flight and only non-direct if direct isn't available.

I know plenty of people who have done the nenkyuu July. My predecessor did it as well.

Bluesuntzu
May 8th, 2014, 15:57
Cost of a ticket: hundreds of dollars, maybe over a thousand.
Cost of changing a ticket: tens of dollars.

OP, if you want to try this, that's fine. Good luck to you. But don't try and say that the BoE would be paying the same either way. At the very best it's dishonest. And if "lying to secure financial gain" isn't the definition of fraud, I'm not sure what is.

Actually, if I am unable to fly out in three months, I am going to fly out in 1 month anyway. No matter what my BEO is going to be paying for an airplane ticket.

Furthermore, I would only attempt to get them to pay for the price of the ticket within the first month, if I choose a later date the additional cost will be covered by my own money.

There exists no hypothetical world where my BEO will pay more or less than the number they are going to pay. I really don't see what you are getting at.

I might agree that it is what is legally construed as "fraud" but you'll have a hard time convincing me that I am actually doing them a great deal of damage seeing as how the dollar amount on their end is going to be the same in any situation.

Antonath
May 8th, 2014, 16:12
I might agree that it is what is legally construed as "fraud" but you'll have a hard time convincing me that I am actually doing them a great deal of damage seeing as how the dollar amount on their end is going to be the same in any situation.
You leave after 1 month: BoE is obliged to buy you a ticket.
You leave after 3 months: BoE is NOT obliged to buy you a ticket, and you have to pay for your own flight back.

Just because you lie to them about when you're leaving doesn't mean you're leaving within one month.

Seriously, even you admit that this is fraud. How about you go ask this on Official and see how quickly it gets back to your BoE. Then see what they think of your plan that "costs them the same either way".

mrcharisma
May 8th, 2014, 16:15
Let's stop engaging this thieving gutter rat. For all we know he's hacking into our computers and snaffling our bank details as we speak.

word
May 8th, 2014, 16:17
I might agree that it is what is legally construed as "fraud" but you'll have a hard time convincing me that I am actually doing them a great deal of damage seeing as how the dollar amount on their end is going to be the same in any situation.
From a certain standpoint, that's certainly true. However, try not to think of the situation in exclusively financial terms.

The whole 30-day limit was almost certainly enacted in order to ensure that nobody would ever overstay their visa, resulting in potential arrest, incarceration, and deportation of the former ALT, plus a hefty amount of public shame for the BoE. The 30-day limit is "insurance" for the BoE; it's a way of guaranteeing that, so long as their former ALT wants that free plane ticket, s/he won't dick around in the country for too long and cause issues for them. That's worth something.

By bypassing this mechanism, you would be taking that assurance from them. Nothing bad would probably happen, you probably wouldn't overstay your visa, everything would probably be fine. I'd probably be fine if I didn't have a seatbelt on my drive home, too, but that doesn't mean I'd be happy if someone cut through it before I left today.

I don't think you're a criminal or anything; I don't even think you're sh*tty for considering it. If it were me, though, I'd just go discuss it with someone I liked and see if there was any possibility we could work something out.

Bluesuntzu
May 8th, 2014, 16:26
You leave after 1 month: BoE is obliged to buy you a ticket.
You leave after 3 months: BoE is NOT obliged to buy you a ticket, and you have to pay for your own flight .

You know, you're absolutely right. Your persuasion powers have won me over. I guess I will just leave within the one month window. AND MY SCHOOL WILL PAY FOR AN AIRPLANE TICKET.

I really hope they appreciate the money I am saving them by not having them pay the same amount in scenario 2.

Your argument would make sense if I planned on staying 3 months without a free airplane ticket, which I am not. My staying three months is contingent on me getting a free airplane ticket.

Lol anyway, this is worthless. I didn't ask if this was ethically correct I asked if someone had done something like this before or had experience negotiating on this issue. I guarantee that whatever my decision none of your shaming will sway me.

Bluesuntzu
May 8th, 2014, 16:32
From a certain standpoint, that's certainly true. However, try not to think of the situation in exclusively financial terms.

The whole 30-day limit was almost certainly enacted in order to ensure that nobody would ever overstay their visa, resulting in potential arrest, incarceration, and deportation of the former ALT, plus a hefty amount of public shame for the BoE. The 30-day limit is "insurance" for the BoE; it's a way of guaranteeing that, so long as their former ALT wants that free plane ticket, s/he won't dick around in the country for too long and cause issues for them. That's worth something.

By bypassing this mechanism, you would be taking that assurance from them. Nothing bad would probably happen, you probably wouldn't overstay your visa, everything would probably be fine. I'd probably be fine if I didn't have a seatbelt on my drive home, too, but that doesn't mean I'd be happy if someone cut through it before I left today.

I don't think you're a criminal or anything; I don't even think you're sh*tty for considering it. If it were me, though, I'd just go discuss it with someone I liked and see if there was any possibility we could work something out.

Valid points, will consider your advice.

therealwindycity
May 8th, 2014, 16:51
Unfortunately all of our departing jets seem to disappear after going home, so we don't have a lot of people around who have been through the post-jet stuff to offer advice

Ini
May 8th, 2014, 16:53
Unfortunately?

Antonath
May 8th, 2014, 17:12
Your argument would make sense if I planned on staying 3 months without a free airplane ticket, which I am not. My staying three months is contingent on me getting a free airplane ticket.
Yes, clearly that's what your plan was, when you talked in your original post about changing the date after your BoE reimburse you, not leaving at all, or trying to pocket the money.

Do it, don't do it. No one really cares. Like you said, we're not going to convince you either way. The only purpose this thread serves is in trying to persuade other people not to commit fraud against the Japanese government.

Bluesuntzu
May 8th, 2014, 17:32
Yes, clearly that's what your plan was, when you talked in your original post about changing the date after your BoE reimburse you, not leaving at all, or trying to pocket the money.


I just wanted to see if anyone had information about any of those possibilities. All of them are related to my situation in terms of modifying the original ticket it some form.

Anyway, good luck protecting the Japanese government.

Ini
May 8th, 2014, 17:46
Try and ignore antonath, he just likes to troll.

mrcharisma
May 8th, 2014, 20:06
Should it not be our civic duty to inform someone more official about this shyster's fiendish plan?

I recognise the name from the official forums and if we allow such an unscrupulous criminal to walk in our mists then we're equally as guilty as him.

word
May 8th, 2014, 20:14
No. ITIL members can absolutely ask questions like this without having to worry about IRL consequences. I will protect members to the absolute best of my ability in this regard. This is one of the reasons why ITIL exists. Unless someone pops on here and asks how to keep a bathtub full of sand from smelling like dead body, I'm going to do all I can to keep folks as safely anonymous as possible.

Gizmotech
May 8th, 2014, 20:17
Applause. Not that my identity is particularly secure, but I wouldn't say half the shit I do on here if my shit could be reported to my bosses.

I might disagree with blue on what they were originally planning, and should they so it then whatever, but in no way should they be reported for it. They are not the first alt thinking like this nor will they be the last.

therealwindycity
May 8th, 2014, 20:58
No. ITIL members can absolutely ask questions like this without having to worry about IRL consequences. I will protect members to the absolute best of my ability in this regard. This is one of the reasons why ITIL exists. Unless someone pops on here and asks how to keep a bathtub full of sand from smelling like dead body, I'm going to do all I can to keep folks as safely anonymous as possible.

<3

mrcharisma
May 8th, 2014, 23:08
I would have thought my use of "gutter rat" and "shyster" made it clear I wasn't being remotely serious...

word
May 8th, 2014, 23:13
Nah; I get that you were just messin' around, and I feel kinda dickish for throwing my response at you like that; you didn't deserve it. It was an opportunity to make a few things clear to any potential newbs that might be around, though; couldn't let it slip by!

Jiggit
May 9th, 2014, 08:26
walk in our mists

:confused:

word
May 9th, 2014, 08:47
http://skymovies.sky.com/image/unscaled/2011/10/19/gorillas-in-the-mist-01-spl.jpg

ihatefall
May 9th, 2014, 16:52
Unfortunately?

I definitely just lol'd in the office hahah


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par92186
May 13th, 2014, 14:57
Do it, don't do it. No one really cares. Like you said, we're not going to convince you either way. The only purpose this thread serves is in trying to persuade other people not to commit fraud against the Japanese government.


point.set.match.

Ini
May 13th, 2014, 15:04
point.set.match.

come again?

par92186
May 13th, 2014, 15:05
come again?

end.of.discussion.

Ini
May 13th, 2014, 15:07
shouldn't it be game set match?

par92186
May 13th, 2014, 15:09
Does, "GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL" work better?

Ini
May 13th, 2014, 15:12
not really, unless of course we have exhausted extra time and the golden goal rule is in effect. otherwise a goal wouldn't end the game.

par92186
May 13th, 2014, 15:13
...
Finish him? Flawless victory?

Ini
May 13th, 2014, 15:17
Finish him? so you want Antonath to comment more on the subject?

par92186
May 13th, 2014, 15:19
;) maybe

uthinkimlost?
May 13th, 2014, 15:30
;) maybe

Are you flirting with Ini or Antonath?

par92186
May 13th, 2014, 15:33
no flirt intended at all. this was the wink I was going for...3604

par92186
May 13th, 2014, 15:34
Sorry for dragging this off-topic...and i'm done.

Antonath
May 13th, 2014, 15:39
Meh, off-topic is the life-blood of threads around here most of the time.

kenkennif
May 13th, 2014, 16:36
You could just ask them if they would mind you booking a later ticket because you wanted to see more of Japan before you went home?
They might just think you loved Japan sooooo much that they were charmed into extending your stay without all of this sneaky messing about.