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genkispirit
June 2nd, 2015, 08:25
Hey guys, just blew a modest $11 on this Influent on Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/app/274980/) it works for mac so it's a huge bonus for me. It doesn't teach grammar or anything. But it's great for testing yourself on words: nouns, verbs, adjectives. Basically, it's like Flash Cards with a randomized Test. You get star and achievements etc. Turns language learning into a game. I've found it enjoyable.

Zolrak 22
June 2nd, 2015, 09:42
I like it, a little limited/gimmicky, but a start in the right direction.

Another game I have hopes for, even if the development diaries aren't impressing me is Koe. Backing it on Kickstarter.

Supposed to be a JRPG that introduces Japanese language/kanji with gameplay. For example, certain attacks could be kanji you form and such.

Ananasboat
June 2nd, 2015, 14:36
Yeah, I can't imagine spending $11 on a vocab deck.

Zol, I really like your idea though. Unfortunately, you'll start associating the kanji with their attack effects. That's not terribly effective, I think.

My ideal game would be a text-based RPG, with leveling up resulting in harder kanji, different grammar points in the dialogue and increased stats. Enemies would be vocab or kanji compounds and quests would be reading/listening/grammar practice. You'd get GP from both, and you'd need to buy it for like, second guesses or retests or whatever.

But that sort of game would be massive.

Zolrak 22
June 2nd, 2015, 14:43
Zol, I really like your idea though. Unfortunately, you'll start associating the kanji with their attack effects. That's not terribly effective, I think.
That's the whole point, buddy.

The kanji for fire, throws fire. Volcano, creates a volcano and etc.

(I can't take the idea as mine, I might have thought of it before, but they actually started making a game [emoji6] )



My ideal game would be a text-based RPG, with leveling up resulting in harder kanji, different grammar points in the dialogue and increased stats. Enemies would be vocab or kanji compounds and quests would be reading/listening/grammar practice. You'd get GP from both, and you'd need to buy it for like, second guesses or retests or whatever.

But that sort of game would be massive.

Sure, you write it and I'll see if I can remember how to code it? [emoji14]

Ananasboat
June 2nd, 2015, 14:58
That's the whole point, buddy.

The kanji for fire, throws fire. Volcano, creates a volcano and etc.

But, I mean like, that'll only be useful for not all that many useful kanji. There are a ton of beginning level kanji that wouldn't be included in the game because they're not attacks. Like, sure, you could say that "本" is an attack because you're throwing a book at someone, but what about "曜," which you learn pretty much at the same time? Where's the attack for "day of the week?"

Virgil
June 2nd, 2015, 15:01
I think the ideal game would set up mechanics in English, and then start replacing key phrases and vocabulary as the game progresses. You would have to do it in a way that only give just enough context to help, but require the player to actually learn vocabulary and grammar points. It's completely doable, it just hasn't been done.

weepinbell
June 2nd, 2015, 22:57
Sounds a lot like memrise... I've mostly been using that and wanikani for vocab. Didn't like memrise at first, but it's grown on me... I was convinced I wasn't learning anything, but I've kinda subliminally retained stuff and not realize until I'm watching something in Japanese and recognize a word I learned from it... I guess that's the point lol. The kanji part of it is okay for recognition, but wanikani is waaay better. I think I'm gonna shell out the 80 for the full year... I've been using it for about a month now though, and I'm actually starting to understand how reading kanji works, so I figure it'll be worth it. Speaking of which, has anyone used textfugu? I think I'm gonna make my way through Genki 2 before considering it so I don't totally overwhelm myself with grammar stuff, but I'm wondering if anyone's used it.

genkispirit
June 2nd, 2015, 23:34
Sounds like ITIL needs to brainstorm ideas and come up with a kickstarter for project on Japanese Language.

We can call it "I Think I'm Lost: A Japanese Guide to Foreigners Trying To Find the Mythical Panty Vendor Machine"

Zolrak 22
June 3rd, 2015, 06:48
Speaking of which, has anyone used textfugu? I think I'm gonna make my way through Genki 2 before considering it so I don't totally overwhelm myself with grammar stuff, but I'm wondering if anyone's used it.
If you have Genki, then you probably don't need textfugu.

I can't appreciate the "advance stuff" but from what I've been told and what I've seen in Genki 1, they are pretty similar in content. (there's different approaches and slight variations in content, but not sure if it's worth spending, I'll see if I can screenshot the content later)

It's just that Textfugu is more of a story than a normal textbook, which in my case helps with my learning.

Koichi has a certain way to write that I appreciate.

Though they've been in the process of restructuring/rewriting the website as such, any typos you find won't be fixed in that version.

I'm not sure if you'd still be able to take advantage of the deal they are offering established customers. (we get "EtoEto" the new book, and other stuff)

http://blog.textfugu.com/post/107358447259/an-etoeto-preview (A preview of the new one)

Edit:
And here's a list of the current content (Sorry for the image size) 5268

Gizmotech
June 3rd, 2015, 12:34
Sounds a lot like memrise... I've mostly been using that and wanikani for vocab. Didn't like memrise at first, but it's grown on me... I was convinced I wasn't learning anything, but I've kinda subliminally retained stuff and not realize until I'm watching something in Japanese and recognize a word I learned from it... I guess that's the point lol. The kanji part of it is okay for recognition, but wanikani is waaay better. I think I'm gonna shell out the 80 for the full year... I've been using it for about a month now though, and I'm actually starting to understand how reading kanji works, so I figure it'll be worth it. Speaking of which, has anyone used textfugu? I think I'm gonna make my way through Genki 2 before considering it so I don't totally overwhelm myself with grammar stuff, but I'm wondering if anyone's used it.


Textfugu is pointless if you have Genki. It doesn't even get to the end of Genki I from what a friend told me.

As for wanikani, SOO worth the 80$/year. I mean, I have acquired sooo much vocabulary that I can actually use in context from it that it has paid for itself. That's why I paid for a second year. (I thought about a lifetime sub when they were available, but decided against it)

This application... I don't really see the point for a grown up to use it. While gaming is fun, it's more of a motivator to accomplish the learning goals which is great for kids, but an adult really shouldn't need it. Learning a language shouldn't be a haphazard thing, it should actually require a bit of effort on peoples part.

Virgil
June 3rd, 2015, 13:40
This application... I don't really see the point for a grown up to use it. While gaming is fun, it's more of a motivator to accomplish the learning goals which is great for kids, but an adult really shouldn't need it. Learning a language shouldn't be a haphazard thing, it should actually require a bit of effort on peoples part.

I agree that it should be planned a deliberate, but I still think adults need some sort of "gimmick" to keep them motivated.

weepinbell
June 3rd, 2015, 22:59
If you have Genki, then you probably don't need textfugu.



Thanks Zol. Is that image literally all the lessons? If it is, you're right, I've covered probably 90% of it in Genki I already... well, hopefully after Genki II, I'll be able to learn grammar more through experience anyway. I feel like that'll be worth more than a textbook lol.




As for wanikani, SOO worth the 80$/year. I mean, I have acquired sooo much vocabulary that I can actually use in context from it that it has paid for itself. That's why I paid for a second year. (I thought about a lifetime sub when they were available, but decided against it)



Awesome yeah, I'm definitely thinking it'll help me in that way, too. I've already learned a ton. Do you know if the discount credit expires after you complete all your beta lessons or can I just get the discount as long as I have the beta?

genkispirit
June 4th, 2015, 01:27
It's not really that it's a game itself. It does a lot of things that learning from a book doesn't provide. You have visuals, colours, sounds, text. Your brain processes it no differently then it would if you grabbed something in the real world and had Morgan Freeman tell you what it was in a foreign language every time you touched an object. It's how children learn language. They touch something, the omniscient parent figure says a word, and they associate the word with the object. Just because you're an adult doesn't mean you can magically acquire language in a more refined manner.

Ananasboat
June 4th, 2015, 06:52
It's not really that it's a game itself. It does a lot of things that learning from a book doesn't provide. You have visuals, colours, sounds, text. Your brain processes it no differently then it would if you grabbed something in the real world and had Morgan Freeman tell you what it was in a foreign language every time you touched an object. It's how children learn language. They touch something, the omniscient parent figure says a word, and they associate the word with the object. Just because you're an adult doesn't mean you can magically acquire language in a more refined manner.

I mean like, that's all fine and dandy when you're a baby. But walking into an office and being able to say "hasami," and point to scissors probably isn't going to convey what you want.

I'm not spending that much on learning software if I'm not going to get a component other than vocab. And I wouldn't advocate anyone else does.

Gizmotech
June 4th, 2015, 08:46
Actually, because you're an adult does mean you can learn language in a more refined manner. You can make associative connections that do not necessarily rely on visual/interactive multi-modal learning that young people rely on before they can process abstract connections.

While multi-modal learning is cool, especially when it is visual, the game is a medium for conveying rather simple language which you could otherwise acquire more quickly with a bit of perseverance and effort through another system at a MUCH faster rate.

Great tool for children to keep them engaged (which is the point of the game environment), not much use for adult language learning... especially an educated adult like any JET should be.

Aside:

Every "JET" I've met who has "needed" stuff like this have been the absolute lowest level language performers. The JETs who applied themselves with a proper textbook, a language learning assistant (wanikani, anki, heisig, etc...), and engaged in their world are the ones who have managed to hold conversations or do even better. They're not necessarily smarter than other JETs, more that they actually went about LEARNING rather than playing around with the language.

BifCarbet
June 4th, 2015, 10:06
Aside:

Every "JET" I've met who has "needed" stuff like this have been the absolute lowest level language performers. The JETs who applied themselves with a proper textbook, a language learning assistant (wanikani, anki, heisig, etc...), and engaged in their world are the ones who have managed to hold conversations or do even better. They're not necessarily smarter than other JETs, more that they actually went about LEARNING rather than playing around with the language.

I will always insist that the language comes to you if you let it. There's a reason people think that going to live in Japan is a great way to learn Japanese, and it's not because of access to books and apps. Of course those things help, but I STRONGLY... no, wholeheartedly agree with Giz on this one.

weepinbell
June 4th, 2015, 11:23
Idk why this is an argument, people don't all learn languages the same way? Like I agree yeah, obviously invest in a good textbook and actually engage in the language, but for stuff like rote memorization of vocab I don't see a problem with this... OP literally never said this was their primary source for all things Japanese.

I remember vocab best from silly mnemonics like they use in memrise and wanikani... which btw while wanikani is a more refined method, a lot of its mnemonics are so immature and stupid, and that's why I remember them so well.

This method works for them for VOCAB... would I spend 11$ on something like this? Nah, but if it works for them, have at it.

Zolrak 22
June 4th, 2015, 11:35
Eh, multimedia as a whole is a pretty good way to learn a language.
It's as close as you can get without having to interact with someone who speaks the language.

Sure, you still need people/textbooks to teach you and correct mistakes, but it's pretty helpful for any visual learner.

jwkelley
June 4th, 2015, 11:41
You are in Japan that should be multi-modal enough if you aren't a reclusive troglodyte.

BifCarbet
June 4th, 2015, 11:42
You are in Japan that should be multi-modal enough if you aren't a reclusive troglodyte.

You know I'm with you.

Zolrak 22
June 4th, 2015, 11:42
You are in Japan that should be multi-modal enough if you aren't a reclusive troglodyte.
Peeps like Belle aren't in Japan yet. [emoji14]

weepinbell
June 4th, 2015, 22:28
Yeah but we're not in Japan yet haha. Once I'm there I'm sure I'll agree 100%. In the mean time, I don't think it hurts to use a gimmicky app if it helps.

But yeah, my least favorite part about studying Japanese by far is memorizing vocab... so boring and repetetive. I'm anxious to get there so I can pick it up more through experience.

Gizmotech
June 5th, 2015, 00:46
Memorization is far more useful. You might hate it but if it's in your head through an srs you'll drop words you never thought you knew which is so awesome.

weepinbell
June 5th, 2015, 01:41
I'm not knocking it, I'll definitely continue to do it - I've actually grown to like srs quite a bit. I've learned that anki doesn't really work for me though because it doesn't have the mnemonic functions like memrise and wanikani... I guess I could manually input them, but it just takes so long lol. And I like that there's more interaction in the apps I use. For Genki vocab I either use anki or just boring repetition... it doesn't retain quite as well, but I'll still push myself to do it. Either way, I think the exposure and active usage is gonna help it along a LOT more than just sitting and staring at a screen/page haha.

Zolrak 22
June 5th, 2015, 01:49
I guess I could manually input them, but it just takes so long lol.

Textfugu provides some for vocabulary/kanji/etc.

A few actually show up again in Wanikani. [emoji14]

Gizmotech
June 5th, 2015, 09:31
"Takes so long" is exactly why I gave up on my own Anki decks. I have better things to do than build my own study curriculum and 80$ a year is worth it to me.

Virgil
June 5th, 2015, 09:37
"Takes so long" is exactly why I gave up on my own Anki decks. I have better things to do than build my own study curriculum and 80$ a year is worth it to me.

Word.