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jonesinjapan
December 4th, 2008, 13:16
I have been studying Japanese on my own since August and I have learned alot of different verbs and sort of know how to put them in the right sentences.

But every lesson I see talks about Japanese Verb bases, what does the word bases actually mean in this context, I know this sounds kind of dumb but I don't understand when to use base 1 or base three in a conversation or a sentence, I sort of understand the -ta base (a basic for of past tense i think) and the -te form (a command or request form of the verb) but what of bases 1-5?

Any help with that?

AliDimayev
December 4th, 2008, 13:19
I dont know what base 1,2,3,4,5 refers to.

Lua
December 4th, 2008, 13:24
all textbooks teach it *slightly* differently- would you happen to be using the Japanese Step by Step book by Gene Nishi?

AliDimayev
December 4th, 2008, 13:25
Give me an example. Take 'to eat' taberu
What forms are what
taberu
tabemasu
tabete
tabeta
tabe-(tai)
tabemasen
tabenai
tabenakatta

jonesinjapan
December 4th, 2008, 13:40
Give me an example. Take 'to eat' taberu
What forms are what
taberu
tabemasu
tabete
tabeta
tabe-(tai)
tabemasen
tabenai
tabenakatta

I understand your forms, if I am remembering correctly, you have the polite and normal forms of the verb but im talking about

Taberu
Base 1 - Tabe
Base 2 - Tabe
Base 3 - Taberu
Base 4 - Tabere
Base 5 - Tabeyoo
-te form - Tabete
-ta form - Tabeta

Right now i am on different websites but I saw this on many different websites and on the Japanese teaching game on the DS

AliDimayev
December 4th, 2008, 13:41
I'm sorry. So what's your question?

AliDimayev
December 4th, 2008, 13:42
te form is tabete
ta for is tabeta

jonesinjapan
December 4th, 2008, 13:45
My question is when will you use those forms, like when will I use, Tebere or tabeyoo?

jonesinjapan
December 4th, 2008, 13:47
or better yet what would be the english equivilant of those forms

AliDimayev
December 4th, 2008, 13:47
I am not sure what tabere means. If it is suppose to be the command form then it should be tabero, I am pretty sure.

Tabeyou means let's eat

So you can say "Tabeyou ka" Shall we eat?
Or Ikou! "Let's go"

And so on.

AliDimayev
December 4th, 2008, 13:50
oh, tabere, may be like the (slang) form tabereru "to be able to eat"

Though, the correct version shoudl be taberareru

jonesinjapan
December 4th, 2008, 13:51
ahhh i see, so the -you or -ou form depending on whether its a ichidan or godan verb i assume means "Let's ~"

That really helps me out thank you,

this is where I found those verb bases:
http://oasis.fortunecity.com/labreya/147/verbchart.html#ta

AliDimayev
December 4th, 2008, 13:52
Base one and two tabe is used when you add on, um, other auxiliary adjectives or verbs

食べ+たい I want to eat

AliDimayev
December 4th, 2008, 13:53
ahhh i see, so the -you or -ou form depending on whether its a ichidan or godan verb i assume means "Let's ~"

That really helps me out thank you,

this is where I found those verb bases:
http://oasis.fortunecity.com/labreya/147/verbchart.html#ta

yes yes

会う → 会おう
食べる → 食べよう

ampersand
December 4th, 2008, 14:32
My question is when will you use those forms, like when will I use, Tebere or tabeyoo?I didn't learn my Japanese using this jargon, so mine's probably a little off, but I'll try to answer.

Taberu
Base 1 - Tabe
Base 2 - TabeI forget which is which, but I think the 1st is the mizenkei (imperfective form) and is the base of the negative, the passive, the causitive, and the causitive passive. With a godan-verb this would be the ~a stem. E.g. nomanai, nomareru, nomaseru, nomaserareru. The second is the renyoukei (conjunctive form). This is the stem that makes the ~masu form, compound verbs, and can be used to combine clauses. With a godan verb, this would be ~i: nomimasu, nomisugiru, osake o nomi edamame o tabeta.

Base 3 - TaberuThis is the rentaikei (attributive form). It's the affirmative-imperfective form also called the "dictionary form" or the "direct form". It corresponds to the present or future tense (usually) for affirmative English sentences. "[subject] eats or [subject] will eat." It's also the base for the negative imperative (taberuna--"don't eat") and the plain presumptive (taberudarou--"will probably eat").

Base 4 - Tabere This is the izenkai ("realis form"). Its one use is to form the ba-conditional, tabereba--"if [subject] were to eat".

Base 5 - TabeyooThe base is actually "tabe", and is the meireikei (imperative form). It forms the basis for positive imperatives, tabero and tabeyo. Tabeyou is the desiderative or volitional and *one* of its uses is as a sort of "Let's ~". I forget what base that's formed from. It's identical to the ~masu stem (with you added) for vowel-stems and to the ~masu stem minus i (with ou added) for consonant stems.

-te form - TabeteBest just thought of as the te form. It can be used to join clauses, to link a verb to another verb or another word. By itself, it's a polite informal request, but only because that's a contraction of the te form plus a verbal of giving (tabete kudasai, tabete kureru?) which in turn is how one contructs the do something for someone meaning.

-ta form - Tabeta The simple perfective. Usually corresponds to the past tense in an affirmative sentence in English.


or better yet what would be the english equivilant of those formsThis is a dangerous way to go, filled with many pitfalls. You can give English equivalents when it's in a sentence with context. Otherwise, there can be many or no close English equivalent.

Rin
December 4th, 2008, 15:02
I have been studying Japanese on my own since August and I have learned alot of different verbs and sort of know how to put them in the right sentences.

But every lesson I see talks about Japanese Verb bases, what does the word bases actually mean in this context, I know this sounds kind of dumb but I don't understand when to use base 1 or base three in a conversation or a sentence, I sort of understand the -ta base (a basic for of past tense i think) and the -te form (a command or request form of the verb) but what of bases 1-5?

Any help with that?

Watashi wa ringo o taberu. - I eat apples / I will eat an apple.
Watashi wa ringo o tabemasu. - I eat apples / I will eat an apple.

Watashi wa ringo o tabenai. - I don't eat apples / I won't eat an apple.
Watashi wa ringo o tabemasen. - I do not eat apples / I will not eat an apple.

Watashi wa ringo o tabeta. - I ate an apple.
Watashi wa ringo o tabemashita. - I ate an apple.

Watashi wa ringo o tabete iru. - I am eating an apple.
Watashi wa ringo o tabete imasu. - I am eating an apple.

Ringo o tabeyou. - Let's eat an apple.
Ringo o tabemashou. - Let's eat an apple.

Watashi wa ringo o taberareru. - I can eat apples.
Watashi wa ringo o taberaremasu. - I can eat apples.

Ringo o tabesasete kudasai. - Please let me eat an apple.

Watashi wa (dareka) ni ringo o tabesaserareru. - I am made to eat apples.
Watashi wa (dareka) ni ringo o tabesaserarete kureru. - I am allowed to eat apples.

Ringo wa watashi ni taberareta. - The apple was eaten by me.

Ringo o tabero. - Eat the apple.

Ringo o tabetai. - I want to eat an apple.

. . . and so on . . .

ampersand
December 4th, 2008, 15:06
Tabeyou is the desiderative or volitional and *one* of its uses is as a sort of "Let's ~". I forget what base that's formed from.After some checking, it seems that this form is considered to be based on the mizenkei like the negative and passive. This is clearer when you read older stuff where it's still written ~(y)au (e.g. 食べやう and 飲まう), though it would still be read as ~(y)ou in modern Japanese. You see this sort of thing in writing from before World War 2.

jonesinjapan
December 4th, 2008, 15:08
Wow thank you very much all of you that really does but it in perspective, about how to use these verbs.

I know this is going to and will help me in the long run but I really need to find a Japanese teacher though :(

Rin
December 4th, 2008, 15:12
Ta/Te-forms of the different types of verbs:

i-ru/e-ru (with some exceptions)
ita/ite
eta/ete

a-ru/u-ru/o-ru
atta/atte
utta/utte
otta/otte

-tsu/-u
-tta/-tte

-ku (with an exception for iku, which is itta/itte)
-ita/-ite

-gu
-ida/-ide

-mu/-nu/-bu
-nda/-nde

-----

Nai-forms of the different types of verbs:

i-ru/e-ru (with some exceptions)
inai
enai

a-ru/u-ru/o-ru
aranai
uranai
oranai

-tsu
-tanai

-u
-wanai

-ku
-kanai

-gu
-ganai

-mu
-manai

-nu
-nanai

-bu
-banai

ampersand
December 4th, 2008, 15:13
And just to show the trouble that learning Japanese verb forms via their English equivalents can lead to, I give you the following.

[watashi wa] ringo o taberu mae ni, nashi o tabeta. - Before I ate an apple, I ate a pear.
[watashi wa] nashi wo tabeta ato ni, ringo o taberu. - After I eat a pear, I will eat an apple.

This is a pretty straightforward example, but at least try to think "X in Japanese often means Y in English, but sometimes it doesn't" instead of "X in Japanese is Y in English."

Rin
December 4th, 2008, 15:20
After some checking, it seems that this form is considered to be based on the mizenkei like the negative and passive. This is clearer when you read older stuff where it's still written ~(y)au (e.g. 食べやう and 飲まう), though it would still be read as ~(y)ou in modern Japanese. You see this sort of thing in writing from before World War 2.

Nice to see a fellow studier of Old Japanese.

I prefer its grammar to the current set-up, since it is more consistant.

katsudon
December 5th, 2008, 09:34
Nice to see a fellow studier of Old Japanese.

I prefer its grammar to the current set-up, since it is more consistant.

hooray for kyuukanazukai! I am having a hard time finding books here in kyuukanazukai (obviously, I want things that were written in it, I'm not looking for Banana Yoshimoto or Murakami in kyuukanazukai.)

I agree it shows the grammar better...like the Korean alphabet still does since it has morphophonemic spelling.

It's not even hard to read once you get used to it...

Wakatta
December 7th, 2008, 19:45
+1 on the not falling into the trap of believing you can really "translate" everything between the languages.

For instance, I'm not sure, but I feel like the -teimasu form, while often equated with the present progressive (-ing) but really strikes me more often as a perfect participle. Like, doesn't "domokun ga kitteimasu" mean more like, "Domo-kun has arrived" than "Domo-kun is on his way here" ?

UPGRAYEDD
December 7th, 2008, 20:12
+1 on the not falling into the trap of believing you can really "translate" everything between the languages.

For instance, I'm not sure, but I feel like the -teimasu form, while often equated with the present progressive (-ing) but really strikes me more often as a perfect participle. Like, doesn't "domokun ga kitteimasu" mean more like, "Domo-kun has arrived" than "Domo-kun is on his way here" ?

Well once you get into Kanji you'll learn the difference between 来る and 着る.

ampersand
December 8th, 2008, 00:02
+1 on the not falling into the trap of believing you can really "translate" everything between the languages.

For instance, I'm not sure, but I feel like the -teimasu form, while often equated with the present progressive (-ing) but really strikes me more often as a perfect participle. Like, doesn't "domokun ga kitteimasu" mean more like, "Domo-kun has arrived" than "Domo-kun is on his way here" ?First off, "kitteimasu" would be "has cut" or "is cutting", as the ~te form of kuru is kite. ;) Second, as verbs of motion are verbs of change of state in Japanese, there's no "is coming" or "is going" in the progessive sense. You've either come or you haven't in Japanese. You can use other constructions if you have to convey that the action was ongoing.

But yes, whether the ~teiru form is equivalent to the perfect or progressive aspect depends on context. (I know that's a big surprise when dealing with Japanese.) It's important to remember that they're the same thing in Japanese.

AliDimayev
December 8th, 2008, 09:12
死んでいる

(He) is dead.

Rin
December 8th, 2008, 15:55
The te-iru form of a verb is actually always progressive, in the sense that it points to an on-going state, but on intransitive verbs and verbs of motion, it translates much more into English's present perfect.


Transitive: taberu - to eat :: tabete iru - is/am/are eating

Watashi wa ringo o taberu. - I eat apples.
Watashi wa ringo o tabete iru. - I am eating an apple.
Intransitive: aku - to open :: aite iru - to be open

Hairu to to wa jidouteki ni aku. - The door opens automatically when you enter.
To wa aite iru. - The door is open.
Verb of Motion (automatically intransitive): iku - to go :: itte iru - to have gone

Ashita Nihon ni iku. - I'll go to Japan tomorrow.
Kare wa Nihon ni itte iru. - He has gone to Japan (and he is currently still there).

Wakatta
December 9th, 2008, 15:53
Well once you get into Kanji you'll learn the difference between 来る and 着る.

Embarrassingly, I already know kanji. ... I thought the relevant 着 verb was 着く, though. 着る is "to wear", isn't it? Wouldn't that be like 着物を着ています。 (I've put on a kimono/I'm wearing a kimono)?

But, yeah, I only just realized that there's no っ with 来て. I used to make the same mistake with 見る. I know, it's obvious, but I guess I just got into a bad habit.

So I guess if you wanted to say, "I'm on my way", you'd use something like, 行きながらです or 行く中です? I really hate the lack of proper (yeah, I'm going to be normative here, for the sake of griping if not as a serious argument) tense in Japanese. The whole "high-context" thing is such a bitch. I've more than once been totally unsure what sense I'm conveying. I mean, yeah, it makes it interesting, and it's one reason I like Japanese, but it's also totally bizarre to me.


But yes, whether the ~teiru form is equivalent to the perfect or progressive aspect depends on context. (I know that's a big surprise when dealing with Japanese.) It's important to remember that they're the same thing in Japanese.

WHICH IS INSANE MOON LOGIC. (Yes, yes, more griping about frustration with learning the language than making a serious argument.) I guess you just have to learn to think about the present tense in the same sense that English uses -ing. E.g., if you're getting over a cold, "よくなります", right? I suppose it's fair to critique English for making the default present tense the rarely-used-in-reality "habitual" sense. ("As a general rule, I-") I guess most languages, after all, use the present tense for the continuous or whatever.

A better example of what I was trying to say with that stupid 来る mistake would be 書く. E.g.,

何が書いているの。 ("So what's it say?")

And Rin wins the thread with a sensible transitive/intransitive explanation.

However, a couple examples confuse me there: 死んでいる is about as intransitive as it gets ("Stop dying at me!"), but 死んでいる does not mean you are in the state of dying, but that you are gone, you are deceased, you have joined the choir invisible. Similarly, 書く is plainly transitive, yes? (Hence a more literal translation of 何が書いているの might be "What has/have (person or persons unknown) written?", right?) And yet as I understand it, 書いている unambiguously describes a completed state.

What gives? Why is りんごが食べている not "the apple has been consumed"? (I know that should probably involve the passive, but that's another thing I'm confused on ... potential and passive. I feel like I never, ever use the passive voice in Japanese...and yet the lack of subjects make me feel like, in translation, everything being passive voice would give the proper feel to the language.)

Thanks for the help, all. This kind of stuff has been bugging me for a long time. I need to hit the books some more, but the various explanations do help.

AliDimayev
December 9th, 2008, 15:55
As does 書いてある, right?

Wakatta
December 9th, 2008, 16:17
As does 書いてある, right?

Yeah, I guess at present, I think of 書いている and 書いてある as having more or less the same meaning: something has been written. Is that accurate? I suppose I consider 書いてある to have the implication of someone having gone to the trouble of writing it for us. Like, "Someone's gone ahead and written something".

Rin
December 9th, 2008, 16:29
Embarrassingly, I already know kanji. ... I thought the relevant 着 verb was 着く, though. 着る is "to wear", isn't it? Wouldn't that be like 着物を着ています。 (I've put on a kimono/I'm wearing a kimono)?

着く【つく】 means "to arrive," as in 手紙が着いた - Your letter has arrived. Yeah, it uses the same kanji as "to wear," but that's more moon logic for you.


But, yeah, I only just realized that there's no っ with 来て. I used to make the same mistake with 見る. I know, it's obvious, but I guess I just got into a bad habit.

切る【きる】 > 切って【きって】
着る【きる】 > 着て【きて】
来る【くる】 > 来て【きて】
聞く【きく】 > 聞いて【きいて】

Those four have, if not identical, virtually identical te-forms. Ugh.

Anyway, yeah, it's best not to think of the te-iru form as progressive or perfect, but simply as always pointing at a continual state of being.

Rather than translate 死んでいる as "is dying", which it isn't, or even "has died", treat the te-iru form, in this case, as we would an adjective: "is dead" - the same with its opposite: 生きている - "is alive."

Now, for a somewhat related explanation of te-forms in general: they're nouns, or to use a more technically correct term, they're gerunds - in every single case. The fact that you can affix particles like は to them is a good indication of this: 今食べてはいけません - You mustn'n eat right now. カンニングはいけません - You mustn't cheat! One is a noun, the other is . . . a noun.

Japanese does an interesting thing with its te-forms that English used to do with its ing-form (some varieties of English still do, or have residual forms).

In older English (though not Old English), X-ing used to only be a noun-form of the verb: Swimming is fun. However, to make a progressive form (as in "We are swimming"), we used to say "We are on swimming." As I said, some varieties still do this, and others still have the residue, like when you hear some isolated New England varieties where they say, "We're a swimming." This is also why we use phrases like "on-going".

Japanese essentially does the same thing. If we treat iru as always indicating There is an X (on the table, for example), then by saying Watashi wa tabeteiru, it means, technically, There I am on eating. We just simplify it to indicate I am eating.

Even more freaky is that older English also used the ing-form for passives as well.

Instead of "The apple was eatten" - it used to be "The apple was eating." You can't make passives, in English, with intransitive verbs, so it didn't matter that you were saying that something was eating when it was clearly the object of the sentence!

Sorry if I've complicated things.

TL;DR: te-iru always indicates an on-going state, not simply a progressive action.

Wakatta
December 9th, 2008, 16:47
Anyway, yeah, it's best not to think of the te-iru form as progressive or perfect, but simply as always pointing at a continual state of being.
Although clearly, is there not a difference between "in the process of becoming" and "in the state of being"? I mean, if I say, "The plumbing is being fixed", I mean people are working on it and you should not try to fill up your cup. If I say, 水道を治っています, wouldn't that mean that it has been fixed, whereas 水道を治ります means it is being repaired? Although that last one doesn't seem quite right: the difference between "the pipes will be fixed at some point" as opposed to "the pipes are being repaired right now; there's a guy outside"? In other words, if it's a persistent state, how do you distinguish between "in the process of becoming" and "in the process of being"? Does 治る vs. 治す play into this?


Rather than translate 死んでいる as "is dying", which it isn't, or even "has died", treat the te-iru form, in this case, as we would an adjective: "is dead" - the same with its opposite: 生きている - "is alive."
Similarly, here, how do you describe someone who is dying, but is not quite dead? Do you have to do something totally novel, like 死ぬでしょう? 死んでるになります? Or would this just be an example of しにます? (Although that seems confusing for the same reason as the pipes example -- I mean, as a statement of fact, all people *will* die, but not all people are dying in anything but, to quote Fight Club, the Sylvia Plath sense.)

That's an interesting observation on -te forms being nouns.

The older English examples are also quite interesting. Is that related to a'blanking? Like, "Seven lords a'leaping"? Is that properly "Seven lords on leaping"?



Instead of "The apple was eatten" - it used to be "The apple was eating." You can't make passives, in English, with intransitive verbs, so it didn't matter that you were saying that something was eating when it was clearly the object of the sentence!
But that's the thing: "to eat" is very much transitive! What if the apple is a monster apple that is gnawing on your leg? Or if you insist on a more realistic example, say you're eating shark! If we say, "The pigs are eating", are we saying we're feeding them, or we've roasted them and are now having pork pies?

Wakatta
December 9th, 2008, 16:56
Put another way: can anyone fill in the blanks here? With like a single verb? I've put my best guesses below.

1) "The plumbing is being fixed. The pipes are in pieces, and if you turn on that faucet, you'll get a mug of sludge."
治します

2) "The plumbing is fixed. Go ahead and get some water!"
治しています

3) "We're going to fix the plumbing." (I call cheating on using some extra construction like つもり! 基本!)
治します (But that's the same as (1)!)

* * *

4) "That apple is being eaten right now." (Not specifying a person, just saying that it's being eaten. Pure passive.)
りんごが食べています

5) "My God, the apple is devouring that poor kid! It FEEDS!"
りんごが食べます

ampersand
December 9th, 2008, 17:14
The te-iru form of a verb is actually always progressive, in the sense that it points to an on-going state, but on intransitive verbs and verbs of motion, it translates much more into English's present perfect.Except that for transitive verbs, it can also correlate to the present perfect. It's used this way in negative sentences a lot: 予習していない, まだ食べていない, etc. While not particularly common, it is used in the affirmative.


So I guess if you wanted to say, "I'm on my way", you'd use something like, 行きながらです or 行く中です?You could use those, but something like もう出ています or すぐ着きます might be more natural. The problem is that since 行く and 来る describe changes of state in Japanese, the fact that you are currently in the midst of coming or going isn't something that you'd normally try to express.


WHICH IS INSANE MOON LOGIC.No more so than not distinguishing between 乗る, お乗りする, and お乗りになる or not having adjectives change to match their object in number and gender or any of the myriad of things that other languages do but English doesn't. Different games, different rules.

I will remember until my death my Japanese professor repeatedly chiding one of my classmates, "ぶぅぅぅ、石崎さん*。No direct translation." While you can get away with it most of the time in a related language like German, or even a Romance language, trying to figure out Japanese via English equivalents is short cut to a lot of frustration. It seems harder, but it actually ends up easier to just forego that and learn Japanese in terms of Japanese grammar and usage.


何が書いているの。 ("So what's it say?")That's "What is writing?" As 書く is transitive, you need ある to make what's been written the subject, emphasizing that something has been written (even though the Japanese isn't passive) instead of that someone has written something. The difference is easier to see with a transitive-intransitive pair:
窓が開けてある。--> "The window is open." Someone has opened the window.
窓が開いている。 --> "The window is open." (Or it's opening.) The window has opened. We don't care whether it did so on its own or someone opened it.


What gives? Why is りんごが食べている not "the apple has been consumed"?Because what you've written is "The apple is eating/has eaten." Either りんごが食べてある or りんごが食べられている would be "The apple has been eaten."


Yeah, I guess at present, I think of 書いている and 書いてある as having more or less the same meaning: something has been written. Is that accurate?Not quite. The former means "has written" whereas the latter means "has been written". The subject of 書いている would be who did the writing. The subject of 書いてある would be what was written.

ampersand
December 9th, 2008, 17:17
What Rin said. (Mostly.)


TL;DR: te-iru always indicates an on-going state, not simply a progressive action.This is the key. te-iru links existence (iru) with another verb. Te-aru does a similar, but distinct, thing.

Wakatta
December 9th, 2008, 19:07
Hmm. So, pointing at a wall on which someone has written some weird kanji and asking, "何が書いているの." is a mistake? Which would be interpreted as me asking what creature, machine, or other thing has written this? I swear I've heard that sentence used, but perhaps they were saying, "何が書いてあるの" and I misheard. I could have sworn I heard no "a" sound.

Similarly, I -swear- I've heard people asking, when curious about the contents of something, "何が入っているの". Was I mishearing this, too? Or does it work, in the sense of asking what has entered the object? (That sounds rather bizarre to me, implying that something just climbed inside on its own, but I guess it's possible.)

I totally agree about direct translation being impossible, and I try to make that point to students and JTEs from time to time, but on the other hand, I think that sometimes Japanese seems to be literally referring to a different -concept-. Like, there's a meaningful difference between pipes being fixed and pipes whose repairs are complete. That's not semantic nuance, that's a meaningful physical difference. Although I kind of hate saying that, because it seems to justify the batshit-crazy nihonjinron fuckheads.

The explanation that 行く and 来る are transitional verbs makes sense -- so really, then, they refer to the instantaneous act of starting to go or beginning to arrive, not the 5 minute/1 hour/whatever-long process of walking between places.

Wakatta
December 9th, 2008, 19:14
The problem is that since 行く and 来る describe changes of state in Japanese, the fact that you are currently in the midst of coming or going isn't something that you'd normally try to express.

Are you saying that Japanese people don't ever find the need to explain, when asked about their activities/location, that they are (say) in a car on their way somewhere? I mean, that seems a perfectly natural element in the set of possibilities:

1) I am still at A
2) I have just left A
3) I am along the path from A to B
4) I am arriving at B
5) I am on-site at B

If you request a status report, surely sometimes people most naturally want to say, "3", yes? In fact, for trips of a non-trivial distance, is that not the most common state to find oneself in?

ampersand
December 9th, 2008, 19:25
Hmm. So, pointing at a wall on which someone has written some weird kanji and asking, "何が書いているの." is a mistake? Which would be interpreted as me asking what creature, machine, or other thing has written this? I swear I've heard that sentence used, but perhaps they were saying, "何が書いてあるの" and I misheard. I could have sworn I heard no "a" sound.Now I'll have to extra attention. I don't think I've heard anyone say that, but I'll keep my ears open. Do you hear this a lot?

Of course, there's also possibility that a native speaker made a mistake or said something poorly. Some are relatively common, like すみませんでした or ビールになります. Other times it's just someone misspeaking or changing what they want to say mid-sentence. One of my JTEs uttered the rather odd 来ましていない the other day.


Similarly, I -swear- I've heard people asking, when curious about the contents of something, "何が入っているの". Was I mishearing this, too? Or does it work, in the sense of asking what has entered the object? (That sounds rather bizarre to me, implying that something just climbed inside on its own, but I guess it's possible.入る is intransitive. It just means something entered. It doesn't matter how or if someone else put it in (入れる). It only seems strange because in English there are things that can enter on their own and things that can't. In Japanese, it's no more bizarre than 窓が開いている.

Wakatta
December 9th, 2008, 19:35
I feel like I've heard it a lot. I'll ask a JTE too next chance I get and post the results.

I guess that works. Although to me, it's a strange mental emphasis on the action of the object moving into the box, rather than the immediate reality of it being in the box.

What's wrong with すみませんでした?

And I'm still confused about the 1-5 example above and the pipes.

ampersand
December 9th, 2008, 20:00
What's wrong with すみませんでした?The implicit subject. Though almost never written with kanji anymore, it's 済みません. 済む means "complete", "finish", "come to an end", etc. Etymologically, what won't come to an end is your obligation or debt to the other person. Saying すみませんでした means that said obligation didn't come to an end in the past, but it leaves the future open to the possibility that it will.


And I'm still confused about the 1-5 example above and the pipes.Note that none of your 1 to 5 use come or go, which in Japanese are what happen at 4. You've either arrived or you haven't. You've either gone/come (which isn't the same as having left in Japanese) or you haven't. You can convey pretty much all the information you describe, you just don't use 行っている or 来ている to do it.

Wakatta
December 9th, 2008, 20:04
The implicit subject. Though almost never written with kanji anymore, it's 済みません. 済む means "complete", "finish", "come to an end", etc. Etymologically, what won't come to an end is your obligation or debt to the other person. Saying すみませんでした means that said obligation didn't come to an end in the past, but it leaves the future open to the possibility that it will.
Ahhh, so that's what that means! I had wondered what the technical meaning of すみません was. Someone in college told me it meant, "I wish I did not exist (as I trouble you so)". Or was that ごめんなさい? Anyway. That always sounded pretty odd to me.

(Edit: I just checked. It seems like ごめんなさい (御免なさい) is basically, "Please forgive me." Sensible, albeit less exciting than a desire to be erased from existence!)


Note that none of your 1 to 5 use come or go, which in Japanese are what happen at 4. You've either arrived or you haven't. You've either gone/come (which isn't the same as having left in Japanese) or you haven't. You can convey pretty much all the information you describe, you just don't use 行っている or 来ている to do it.
Good point! I think I fell into the linguistic version of the "evidence of absence/absence of evidence" trap...just because I don't know the appropriate expressions, I assumed they didn't exist.

ampersand
December 10th, 2008, 13:17
Now I'll have to extra attention. I don't think I've heard anyone say that, but I'll keep my ears open. Do you hear this a lot?Just had Tard-gumi before lunch. We were talking about days and months, so there was much discussion of calendars and what is written on them. It was all 〜が書かれている.

fredbarbarossa
December 14th, 2008, 21:09
Put another way: can anyone fill in the blanks here? With like a single verb? I've put my best guesses below.

1) "The plumbing is being fixed. The pipes are in pieces, and if you turn on that faucet, you'll get a mug of sludge."
修理中

2) "The plumbing is fixed. Go ahead and get some water!"
直された

3) "We're going to fix the plumbing." (I call cheating on using some extra construction like つもり! 基本!)
直す

4) "That apple is being eaten right now." (Not specifying a person, just saying that it's being eaten. Pure passive.)
りんごが食べられているところだ

5) "My God, the apple is devouring that poor kid! It FEEDS!"
りんごが食べる

Wakatta
December 16th, 2008, 23:19
Thanks Fred! Coincidentally, I also had this conversation with my JTE today, and that's pretty much what he said.

One question, though: why not りんごが食べられている? What if anything would that mean? What's the ところだ for?

ampersand
December 17th, 2008, 09:02
One question, though: why not りんごが食べられている? What if anything would that mean? What's the ところだ for?ところ is 所 and literally means "place", but it gets used figuratively the way "point" or "part" do in English. To me it seems kind of weird to use it without another clause in the sentence or context for the sentence, like 何々があった時、りんごが食べられているところだった. "When something occurred, the apple was being eaten." It's literally "[At] the time when something happened, [it] was the place (or part or point) where the apple is [tense is relative--at that point it was still happening] being eaten."

If you just want to convey that the apple is being eaten, it's not necessary.

Mindflux
December 20th, 2008, 10:40
Ahhh, so that's what that means! I had wondered what the technical meaning of すみません was. Someone in college told me it meant, "I wish I did not exist (as I trouble you so)". Or was that ごめんなさい? Anyway. That always sounded pretty odd to me.
They were misinterpreting すみません (済む) as すむ (住む) "be going to live" as in: 大阪に住んでいます "I live in Osaka", 大阪に住みません "I will not have lived in Osaka" (maybe, I've never heard 住む used as a negative.)
I was actually wondering whether or not those two were related the other week since "not going to live" seemed uninterpretable as an apology.
The definition I pulled up for 済む is "To finish, to be at ease, to be less severe than expected" making 済みません "To feel uneasy or guilty." Which makes much more sense.

AliDimayev
December 22nd, 2008, 11:58
I was watching a show last night and one guy said, もう済んだ in reference to ones dinner as he took her plate and threw it out the window.

Baikinman
February 20th, 2009, 09:31
Sorry if anyone has already mentioned it, but i didn't spot it.

For saying you are on your way somewhere, there is a Japanese equivalent of 'on the way'.

途中 とちゅう
On the way, in the middle of doing something else


(今)途中です。
I'm on my way (now).

もう途中です。
I'm on my way/ I've already started/ I've already set out.

このバスはB町まで参ります。途中でお降りのご乗車はチャイムでお知らせください。
This is the bus for B town. Passengers who wish to alight along the way, please ring the bell.

お話の途中ですみませんが。。。
Sorry for interrupting your conversation but...

途中 has a lot of uses and I'm still getting the hang of it myself, so you'll have to forgive the small number of examples.

ohheythere
February 20th, 2009, 18:33
oh, tabere, may be like the (slang) form tabereru "to be able to eat"

Though, the correct version shoudl be taberareru

I know up in Hokkaido they say "tabere" instead of "tabeyoo"

Hyakuman
February 23rd, 2009, 11:48
このバスはB町まで参ります。途中でお降りのご乗客はチャイムでお知らせください。
This is the bus for B town. Passengers who wish to alight along the way, please ring the bell.

corrected that for you. but i'm sure they would say お客様 instead since it's more personal than ご乗客 in this case. although this is just using logic. japanese people are not logical.

kiwimusume
March 2nd, 2009, 23:26
corrected that for you. but i'm sure they would say お客様 instead since it's more personal than ご乗客 in this case. although this is just using logic. japanese people are not logical.

I think they say お降りの方. That's what they say in my area, anyway.