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Thread: "L" and "R"

  1. #21
    Senior Member bigredgoofball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicklad
    Doesnt sound need to be perceiceved to exist, otherwise it is just moving particles......



    ad infinitum.
    ...uuummmm, no, actually. The effects of sound can be measured on non-precieving objects. Every object has a sympathetic resonance frequency. If that frequency of sound interacts with the material at a high enough volume, it will actually disintegrate the material, by overcoming the covalent bonds holding it together.

    .....at least, I *think* that's what I read.

    So, sound *can* exist, and its effects can be seen and demonstrated on non-percieving objects.

    EGAD I am such a nerd sometimes.
    "Apparently, this is the price I pay for years of screwing with Super-Science."
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigredgoofball
    Quote Originally Posted by socalDave
    Yeah the la-la-la-la should work for the L but Rrrr for the dog won't... Dogs in Japan don't say Rrrrr, they say Wan Wan, Wan Wan.
    Maybe in Anime they do... but anyone who's ever heard one growl in real life knows better. :wink:

    Hmmmm....... does "Wan-Wan" have a double-meaning?
    I was serious dude~ Believe me, I've had 3 dogs. I know what they sound like but if you ask any Japanese what sound/noise a dog makes, they will most likely say "wan wan". It's the giongo AKA onomatopoeia of the Japanese language... Just like cats say "nyaa nyaa", similar to Curly of the stooges. :P

    The only double-meaning I ever thought of/knew was a retarded joke I made with an ex-j-gf... My dog goes "wan-wan", I say "tsu-tsu".

  3. #23
    Senior Member reed's Avatar
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    Cornelius you are a born teacher. Or a gifted and educated one. Either way, big respect like fish people describe catching in Canada. Am hand-copying this entire thread into the books for permanent memory and someday reference. ♥

  4. #24
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    We call that wit-lag~

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    Quote Originally Posted by socalDave
    We call that wit-lag~
    I still haven't got any of your jokes yet, Dave. When will this wit-lag period be over?

    :P
    "If you've got [a penis], or access to one, take a good look at it this evening and ask yourself: how can this possibly be the work of a sane God?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by dobharrison
    Quote Originally Posted by socalDave
    We call that wit-lag~
    I still haven't got any of your jokes yet, Dave. When will this wit-lag period be over?

    :P
    Y'Bastard~

  7. #27
    Senior Member bigredgoofball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by socalDave
    The only double-meaning I ever thought of/knew was a retarded joke I made with an ex-j-gf... My dog goes "wan-wan", I say "tsu-tsu".
    I just got that... after saying it 10 times..
    uuuuhhhhh.....still working on that one....hmmmmm.... :?:
    "Apparently, this is the price I pay for years of screwing with Super-Science."
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by reed
    Cornelius you are a born teacher. Or a gifted and educated one. Either way, big respect like fish people describe catching in Canada. Am hand-copying this entire thread into the books for permanent memory and someday reference.
    Thanks for the incredibly kind words, reed.

  9. #29
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    As an aside, my Japanese tutor often tells me not to roll my R's in pronounciation like a dog ie.going rrrrrr, because she says its how the yakuza like to speak - accentuating the Rs.

    No doubt kids will find it fun working on the Rs then!!

    JT

  10. #30
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    I found the best way to go about pronouncing the Japanese r/l, for me, was pronounce it the same as I would a single, mid-word r in French. I also found that being able to roll my Rs (to the point of being a handy George Jetson's Car sfx generator, as if anyone needs one) seemed to help. When I roll my Rs, my tongue pronounces the R quickly, several times. I just cut it down to just once. This may make no sense, as it is sleepy time.

  11. #31
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    Just some info from working with speach pathologists at an elementary school here in the states:

    "L" is a frontal sound (pronounced at the front of the mouth) and therefore very visible (placing the tongue directly behind the front teeth). "R," on the other hand, has two ways of being produced (most English speakers don't realize this)...one is "tongue lift" where you bring the tip of your tongue to the top-rear portion of your mouth. The other is "tongue back" where you pull the entire tongue back into the mouth and cup the tongue so that it touches the back teeth on both sides (this one is very difficult for me to accomplish, but apparently it is the natural way for some people to pronounce "R"). Anyway, "R" is less visual either way, and therefore generally harder to teach.

    PS- I got the slightly disturbing feeling of writing erotica with all that info on tongue positions...sorry guys

  12. #32
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    ...I can never remember is L is labio-dental or alveolar... which is just one good reason why I stopped being a Linguistics major, I guess. (Not even sure I spelled those correctly.) dbridges is quite right, though, you don't form the sounds the same.

    Yes, teach the kids to talk like Yakuza, and then teach them how to go "rrrrrowrrr". :wink:

    Question: since all the Japanese speaking people I've met here are trying to learn English, I'm wondering if there's a tendancy to pronounce the "l" more, or is it sort of neutral...? My name contains 3 Ls and an R, so I'm just wondering. I had a conversation partner who consistently pronounced the L in my first name as a strong R, but I wonder if she wasn't overcompensating.
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  13. #33
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    I believe it is labio-dental, although i question why since it is very difficult for me to pronounce "l" by actually touching my tongue to my teeth...i have more of a floating-tongue "l"

  14. #34
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    The position of the japanese l/r is the same as the tounge placement for when we make a "d" sound.

    steelqueen - the fact that she is pronouncing your ls as rs is indicative of several things:

    - she may be trying to overcompensate
    - she may not be a well-versed speaker, and is making mistakes (remember that the distinct l and r sound is new for her, and she may only have an inkling as to why they sound different)
    - she hates you
    - because your name has l and r, she may just not be confident enough to switch sounds, or she may just not know that she is wrong.

  15. #35
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    The best thing I've done in elementary for L and R is to spend 5-10 minutes on it when teaching colors, because they have lots of Ls and Rs and some words with both. First I exaggerate the sounds, by sticking my tongue out for the L sound and squeezing my lips forward for the R, which the kids generally like to imitate and have fun with. There are some in every class that won't do it but oh well. Then I pronounce each word with exaggerated L and R sounds, and they repeat. Then we stand up and I demonstrate that one side of the room is the R side and one side the L side. I say a color, usually exaggerating the sounds a bit, and the kids run to one side or the other depending on if they've heard an L or an R. It's amazing--for the first three there's a bit of confusion, then most of the kids really seem to catch on and get most of them right. Before I tell them which side is right I'll have the kids on the L side say llllll, and the kids on the R side say RRRRR, then I'll say the color with an exaggerated sound, like Bllllllue! and the kids on that side scream and yell. 1st and 2nd graders sometimes have a hard time figuring out what to do with purple, white, pink, etc; but in most of my classes there are a few kids who stand in the middle and will actually say "I'm here because the word had both/neither" when I ask them. I'm always amazed.

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