Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 105

Thread: Save the imaginary children?

  1. #61

    Default

    Yeah! And they should totally have separate but equal public services for women too. It's safer for them and keeps them in their place!

    That's dangerous thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    But what if we reverse the polarity of the quantum string theory? According to uncertainty principle there are infinite worlds out there, so it stands to reason schrodinger's cat is alive in one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo87;
    U da real mvp.

  2. #62
    Senior Member kalliea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Middle of Wheat field USA --> Middle of Rice field Japan-->Middle of Cornfield, USA
    Posts
    11,955

    Default Re: Save the imaginary children?

    Ah, but you see the women have the option of using either the normal cars or the women only ones. Don't think it is a bad thing when giving more options.
    Numbers and colors are my bread and butter

  3. #63

    Default

    Are there men-only cars?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    But what if we reverse the polarity of the quantum string theory? According to uncertainty principle there are infinite worlds out there, so it stands to reason schrodinger's cat is alive in one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo87;
    U da real mvp.

  4. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    577

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    And even if it is, I still think it's ridiculous to relegate women, even voluntarily, to a separate car just keep them away from perverts who are allowed to just chill out.
    It's hardly 'relegation'. Women have the freedom to choose to sit/stand in any carriage; men don't.

    And perverts aren't allowed to just chill out. If they molest someone they get arrested and punished. And sometimes even if they don't molest someone they get targeted by gangs, who arrange for a woman to claim to have been molested and then extort money from their mark.

    None of those things seem, to me, to be indicative of a society that is willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women. What else would you like Japan to do about perverts on trains?

  5. #65
    Feckless Manchild Otaku word's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    日本
    Posts
    18,421

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    What else would you like Japan to do about perverts on trains?
    Clearly, she wants Japan to be more proactive. Armed security officers should be placed on every train car, and if a man so much as glances at or, god forbid, smiles at a woman, he is to be arrested, removed from the train, publicly flogged, and have "痴漢" branded on his forehead.

    It's high time that men learned their place. They should keep their hands in their pockets, their eyes downcast, and should only speak to a woman if addressed directly.

    'Cause, you know, Japan doesn't have a problem with men being passive and meek or anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by 00Bear00 View Post
    When I read your post I suddenly feel like I am so far away from being crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ananasboat View Post
    It's festivals days like these on which I really try really hard to make up for not partying in college.
    yeah, because who needs free flowing drugs and alcohol fueling adventorous sex with taut, lithe young bodies when you could wander around a dying town in the freezing cold with a can of asahi super dry in your hand while some toothless old farmer shouts at you.

  6. #66
    Feckless Manchild Otaku word's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    日本
    Posts
    18,421

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    If they actually get arrested and punished. In Japan, like everywhere else, women are often too shamed to admit molestation when it happens. I don't know the statistics for chikan-related arrests, but I imagine they are very low.
    Here we see the real problem with your argument. You, like kall and, seemingly, so many of the "angry" women on the internet in general are talking out your ass. You have no idea what the actual percentages are. You have no idea how big or small the problem really is. You have no idea what you're talking about in general. You only know that people need to know how angry you are, that the problem is bigger than they think, and that they are all stupid for their own feeble efforts to correct the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    A national change in attitude, for both men and women, is in order. But countries avoid that solution because it's difficult, if not possible, to achieve.
    I'm assuming you mean "if not impossible."

    But, yeah. Clearly, that's what's in order. With this issue and about five trillion other issues. Fuck any society that doesn't live up to your expectations. They should be made to change. They just need a ruthless feminist dictator to seize power, obviously. Here's your chance!


    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    I clearly want all men imprisoned just for existing; it's clearly the most safe and logical solution. I didn't suggest any reforms and these are certainly not what I have in mind. In fact, my ideal solution to molestation involves empowering women to speak up against actual offenders rather than brushing it off and allowing the behavior to continue.
    Oh, I see, so it's the woman's fault. Or, at least, her parent's fault. Or, I guess, since the teachers are responsible for raising children here in Japan, it's their fault. Wait, aren't you a teacher in Japan? Clearly, young women getting groped on trains is all YOUR fault!

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    I don't even think the penalty for groping should necessarily be very severe, but they should exist.
    You don't think penalties exist for sexually abusing a woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    And, unfortunately, like any other crime, sometimes the wrong people are punished. Whether it's the aforementioned extortion issue, a simple misunderstanding or something else entirely, people get unjustly accused all the time. We can't stop trying to stop crime just because some tiny percent of people are wrongly accused.
    We can't stop trying to run an efficient, safe, cost-effective, customer-friendly train service just because some tiny percent of people occasionally get felt up on 'em, either, can we? Apparently we can, because this problem is so bad, it threatens to tear all of Japan apart?

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    Not sure how the soushokukei culture has anything to do with this. Passive and meek men can molest anyone just as well as the next aggressive guy can.
    I suspect they're less likely to offend. I could be wrong. They'd certainly be easier to stop. A passive, meek guy would be completely embarrassed by a girl loudly accusing him of misconduct. Come to think about it, I'd worry more about a passive, meek guy being targeted by the extortion gangs previously mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    Plus, I'm not suggesting we put people in their place, as you put it, at all; this point is totally irrelevant to the argument, at least as you've introduced it.
    The emotional subtext in your arguments speaks far more loudly than your words. You seem hurt, and you are lashing out.
    Quote Originally Posted by 00Bear00 View Post
    When I read your post I suddenly feel like I am so far away from being crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ananasboat View Post
    It's festivals days like these on which I really try really hard to make up for not partying in college.
    yeah, because who needs free flowing drugs and alcohol fueling adventorous sex with taut, lithe young bodies when you could wander around a dying town in the freezing cold with a can of asahi super dry in your hand while some toothless old farmer shouts at you.

  7. #67
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    4,687

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by word View Post
    The emotional subtext in your arguments speaks far more loudly than your words. You seem hurt, and you are lashing out.
    dont tell me your uncle got knuckle deep in your arse when you were a kid too? you should swap stories with miss_i

  8. #68
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    577

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    I say relegated because their other choice is to stay in the mixed-gender car, which is arguably a more chikan-friendly zone now that women have a safer option. Would you really want to be one of the few women who couldn't fit into the women-only car and had to be in the mixed-gender car? I'm not saying they're actually forced but that the decision isn't a good one.
    This is well mental. How is a mixed-gender car more chikan-friendly?

  9. #69
    Feckless Manchild Otaku word's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    日本
    Posts
    18,421

    Default

    My argument is that the creation women-only cars is a decent idea, and that criticizing them as some sort of "cover-up" of the problem is short-sighted and foolish. Are women "relegated" to their own bathrooms? "Relegated" to their own onsen? "Relegated" to their own dressing rooms? This wasn't always the case, of course; mixed onsen used to be the norm. Most men who used such facilities probably behaved themselves, too. Eventually, though, responding to a demand for a more private facility, the sexes were segregated in most onsen.

    You'll make the argument that "That's different; that's when women are getting naked, etc." I would argue that, fundamentally, the situation is no different whatsoever (there is nothing inherently sexual about bathing, using the toilet, or getting dressed). Onsen segregated by sex are popular because they make women feel more comfortable. The women-only cars are offered to the women to make them feel more comfortable.

    Should women who go to a mixed onsen be expected to tolerate untoward behavior by male patrons? Likewise, a woman shouldn't be expected to tolerate untoward behavior on a mixed train car, either. You seem to be thinking that women who set foot on a mixed train car should expect a gauntlet of wandering 痴漢 hands. I would argue that they have the right to get from point A to point B unmolested, and should expect nothing less. That doesn't mean that I think women-only trains are somehow a bad idea. If the customer enjoys it, why shouldn't the business cater to that desire?

    Some women on the women-only car might have never before encountered a groping guy, but they're afraid of 'em all the same. In my eikaiwa, none of the women had ever been touched inappropriately on a train, despite the fact that several of them lived in Tokyo for years as college students. They all said they liked the idea of women-only train cars, though.

    My argument is that you're angry about an aspect of a culture that you can't really understand in a native context. I can't, either, but I'm not calling for a "national change in attitude."

    I have not bent your words, but I do believe your words are ill-informed.
    Last edited by word; February 9th, 2011 at 08:57.
    Quote Originally Posted by 00Bear00 View Post
    When I read your post I suddenly feel like I am so far away from being crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ananasboat View Post
    It's festivals days like these on which I really try really hard to make up for not partying in college.
    yeah, because who needs free flowing drugs and alcohol fueling adventorous sex with taut, lithe young bodies when you could wander around a dying town in the freezing cold with a can of asahi super dry in your hand while some toothless old farmer shouts at you.

  10. #70
    Senior Moment Antonath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Living on the edge of sanity
    Posts
    6,582

    Default Re: Save the imaginary children?

    Thread is getting a little teal deer, but here's a question I don't think we've asked:

    Why is groping on the train such a big problem in Japan?

    The London Underground gets just as packed during rush hour, but I don't recall hearing about groping going on there. Pick-pockets, yes; groping, no. Is it happening and unreported, or is it not an issue? What about other countries?

  11. #71

    Default Re: Save the imaginary children?

    I love women only cars. It's uncomfortable enough being stared at for being young and foreign that I enjoy having the choice. Or at least I did when I lived in Kansai. Now I secretly consider pokin out peoples' eyes.

    Not going to get into this frenzy of semantics and statistics but the biggest necessity in both child and adult abuse is education and prevention measures. For children they need to be made aware that inappropriate touching goes for family and friends as much as it does for stranger danger. In Japan they need more of the same (mostly education since thats the most important part, IMO). I think the car may be a small step but it's an important one.

    I also think it's selfish for any of the people in this thread to assume that women may have the same amount of fear or strength as them. All people have had different life experiences that have made them into the people they are today and it is ignorant to assume that you know what is best for everyone.

  12. #72

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    Thread is getting a little teal deer, but here's a question I don't think we've asked:

    Why is groping on the train such a big problem in Japan?
    Sorry for the double post but it's hard to edit out blocks of text on my phone. I think it's a problem because Japan came a little late to the party where it was accepted that it was a problem worth reporting Now that it's a lot better I don't think it happens quite as much. Once those old dudes from that generation die off it'll probably happen as frequently as it does anywhere else ('cause freaks are everywhere).
    Last edited by Page; February 9th, 2011 at 11:16.

  13. #73
    Global Moderator Scrotty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    сводник
    Posts
    4,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by word View Post
    Japan is safer for kids. I absolutely believe this. Not safer as in "an 8-year-old is less likely to get fingered by her dad," but safer as in "an 8-year-old is less likely to get picked up by some weirdo in a gray sedan, raped, and cut into small pieces and buried in the woods." I don't know why this is true.
    in japan, if you pick a random porn off the shelf, chances are it will involve either family members or someone in a school uniform. i agree with you - it's much safer for a child to be running around town by themselves, the chances that they'll end up in the back of a twisted psychopath's dark-paneled van are much higher in america than in japan. however japan's sexualization of school students and children is pretty fuckin wack, and its prevalence is both a result of and a cause of hush-hush inappropriateness between teachers/students and parents/children

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    And perverts aren't allowed to just chill out. If they molest someone they get arrested and punished.
    no they don't. of the countless stories i've heard from japanese and non-japanese friends alike who have been groped on trains or at stations or wherever, not once has the groper received any form of punishment. the main reason it's still happening is because it's so easy to get away with it.

    surely you've heard stories from people who say they were groped on a packed train car, cried out for help, and everyone else in the carriage looked away and pretended it wasn't happening.

    And sometimes even if they don't molest someone they get targeted by gangs, who arrange for a woman to claim to have been molested and then extort money from their mark.
    i have no idea why you brought this up. this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and even if it did, the incidence of fake extortion gropings as compared to actual gropings is so minuscule as to be negligible.

    None of those things seem, to me, to be indicative of a society that is willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women.
    japanese society is more willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women than western societies such as in america, england or australia.

    care to dispute?

    Quote Originally Posted by word View Post
    You don't think penalties exist for sexually abusing a woman?
    you think penalties are enforced for sexually abusing a woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    This is well mental. How is a mixed-gender car more chikan-friendly?
    as pointed out, from a chikans perspective, anyone in the women-only car is off-limits, anyone in the mixed-gender car is fair game. if a woman enters a mixed-gender car and gets groped, find me one good ol' responsibility-avoidin' liability-hatin' shame-dodgin' japenese fella who won't tell her 'it was your fault for not using the women-only car, that's why it's there!'
    look all i'm saying is if you go here and you die, it's not my fault

  14. #74
    magic markers Gezora's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    GANG
    Posts
    22,839

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotty View Post
    in japan, if you pick a random porn off the shelf, chances are it will involve either family members or someone in a school uniform. i agree with you - it's much safer for a child to be running around town by themselves, the chances that they'll end up in the back of a twisted psychopath's dark-paneled van are much higher in america than in japan. however japan's sexualization of school students and children is pretty fuckin wack, and its prevalence is both a result of and a cause of hush-hush inappropriateness between teachers/students and parents/children


    no they don't. of the countless stories i've heard from japanese and non-japanese friends alike who have been groped on trains or at stations or wherever, not once has the groper received any form of punishment. the main reason it's still happening is because it's so easy to get away with it.

    surely you've heard stories from people who say they were groped on a packed train car, cried out for help, and everyone else in the carriage looked away and pretended it wasn't happening.

    i have no idea why you brought this up. this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and even if it did, the incidence of fake extortion gropings as compared to actual gropings is so minuscule as to be negligible.

    japanese society is more willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women than western societies such as in america, england or australia.

    care to dispute?


    you think penalties are enforced for sexually abusing a woman?


    as pointed out, from a chikans perspective, anyone in the women-only car is off-limits, anyone in the mixed-gender car is fair game. if a woman enters a mixed-gender car and gets groped, find me one good ol' responsibility-avoidin' liability-hatin' shame-dodgin' japenese fella who won't tell her 'it was your fault for not using the women-only car, that's why it's there!'
    Thread ovar. Scrotty is the new wind beneath my wings. Sorry Rondo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Only a fool would do a teachers workload for an assistants salary.

  15. #75
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    577

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotty View Post
    no they don't.
    A quick google suggests that 4,000 of them do every year.

    of the countless stories i've heard from japanese and non-japanese friends alike who have been groped on trains or at stations or wherever, not once has the groper received any form of punishment. the main reason it's still happening is because it's so easy to get away with it.

    surely you've heard stories from people who say they were groped on a packed train car, cried out for help, and everyone else in the carriage looked away and pretended it wasn't happening.
    If we're going to stick to anecdotal evidence, not a single one of my Japanese female friends has been groped on public transport. The only person I know who has encountered any sexual harassment on public transport is my sister, when some old geezer back in the UK flashed at her. Nobody was arrested.

    i have no idea why you brought this up. this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and even if it did, the incidence of fake extortion gropings as compared to actual gropings is so minuscule as to be negligible.
    I bring it up because this sort of extortion exists, and the only reason it exists is because perverts DO get prosecuted in Japan, and their behaviour IS frowned upon by the rest of society.

    japanese society is more willing to tolerate the sexual abuse of women than western societies such as in america, england or australia.

    care to dispute?
    Yes. How can you quantify a society's willingness to tolerate the sexual abuse of women? In America it is apparently legal for people like Max Hardcore to coerce young women into situations where they are abused, and then film it. Then people buy those movies. I think that shows a pretty high tolerance for the sexual abuse of women. I guess it depends on what metrics you use.

    as pointed out, from a chikans perspective, anyone in the women-only car is off-limits, anyone in the mixed-gender car is fair game. if a woman enters a mixed-gender car and gets groped, find me one good ol' responsibility-avoidin' liability-hatin' shame-dodgin' japenese fella who won't tell her 'it was your fault for not using the women-only car, that's why it's there!'
    Find me one that will. A chikan's perspective doesn't matter when evaluating whether a carriage is 'chikan-friendly' or not - what matters is whether their behaviour is more likely to be tolerated. I still can't see why having women-only carriages is going to make all of the people travelling in mixed-gender carriages suddenly approve of chikans more than they did before.

  16. #76
    Feckless Manchild Otaku word's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    日本
    Posts
    18,421

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    Should they have to expect it? No. Are they likely to expect it? I would, and do, at least.
    Ooh, a chance to use a Star Trek quote!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guinan
    When a man is convinced he's going to die tomorrow, he'll probably find a way to make it happen.
    When you expect the worst in people, you shouldn't be surprised when you get it.

    That said, I'm also a pretty cynical person.

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    I absolutely agree that everyone should expect to be respected. Everyone should be able to get from A to B untouched, but that doesn't change the fact the not everyone does make that trip untouched. Whether it's 5% that are getting touched, 60% (those who claim to have been groped on trains in Japan) or 90%, it shows that reality isn't meeting our expectations.
    When I get into a car, I expect to safely travel from A to B without a problem. Doesn't mean I don't fasten my seatbelt or fail to tell MG that I love her before I leave. That's just how reality works. The day reality matches our expectations, there won't be much point to life. You need to learn to trust people. There's a risk involved, sure, but the world is not as terrifying a place as so many people are trying to make it out to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    I see this as another version of the, "What do you do with students who disrupt class?" question. Between Japan and America I see two basic attitudes. In Japan, you leave the kid in class; they are still theoretically able to receive their education while the other students are forced to deal with their disruptive ways. In America, you take the kid of out class; you deny him/her that aspect of their education but at least the other kids are able to continue class somewhat normally. Both of the solutions have their downsides, but I like the one where the problem students are isolated and dealt with directly (akin to a groper being called out and punished), which I see as being very different than isolating the good students in a separate class (offering women a separate car).
    But, again, you're passing a Western, Americanized judgement on an Eastern, Japanese society. Who is to say their way isn't better? They seem to have far fewer instances of outright violence than we do. Their crime rates are lower. Their kids seem a lot more respectful than my kids back in the 'States. It may be different in your Japan, but I hesitate to jump to judgements. If you'd care to read it, you might find this study interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    If your problem with my opinion is just that, a difference of opinions, then I can agree to disagree.
    I'm always down for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    You're right that I'm speaking from a non-native perspective. But I'd feel the same way if I heard about women-only cars in America. It may be a smart business practice or a good short-term solution, but that doesn't mean I have to be on board with it.
    If it were in America, as an American, you'd certainly be qualified to offer a culturally native opinion on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    Having no income tax in Tennessee seems like a smart move because hey! You don't have to pay income tax! But in the long-term, the state economy is failing and low-income families would be better off with an income tax than the sales taxes that they're paying. Many people still support the short-term solution but that doesn't make it good for them financially.
    There's no income tax in Texas, either, but our economy is doing fantastically well. This is a discussion for another thread, but suffice to say, in my opinion, Tennessee's troubles are related more to the fact that everyone who lives in there is an ultra-religious retarded inbred hillbilly*.

    *I have never actually been to Tennessee, nor do I know anyone who lives there. I'm basing my opinion on a dumb stereotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by RomulusLupin View Post
    I'm not sure what the problem is with imagining a long-term, far-reaching solution. Is it ill-informed to imagine something better? I'm not trying to change the world here, just offer my opinion on the issue.
    I'm offering mine in regards to your opinion, I guess. It's what the internet is for--a place where mouth-breathing idiots go to speculate about things they have pretty much no influence upon whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotty View Post
    in japan, if you pick a random porn off the shelf, chances are it will involve either family members or someone in a school uniform. i agree with you - it's much safer for a child to be running around town by themselves, the chances that they'll end up in the back of a twisted psychopath's dark-paneled van are much higher in america than in japan.
    Yup, that's pretty much what I was tryin' to say there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotty View Post
    however japan's sexualization of school students and children is pretty fuckin wack, and its prevalence is both a result of and a cause of hush-hush inappropriateness between teachers/students and parents/children
    Is it really? I've never seen any or heard of any inappropriate behavior by teachers at my schools... which is more than I can say for the schools I taught at/attended in America. Links to actual statistics? Links to studies demonstrating an empirically observable connection between Japan's tendency to sexualize schoolchildren/family members/etcetera and actual child abuse? I just worry that so much of what gets discussed in threads like this is based on hearsay and speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotty View Post
    You think penalties are enforced for sexually abusing a woman?
    Well... yeah, I do. Links to something demonstrating otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    If we're going to stick to anecdotal evidence, not a single one of my Japanese female friends has been groped on public transport.
    Same here. Discussions about this issue in my eikaiwa have resulted in no stories of abuse, nor had anyone actually known anyone who was groped on a train. Several women in my eikaiwa actually speculated that the women who claim to be groped might be making the whole thing up for attention. Why is it that women judge one another so much more harshly than men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    Find me one that will. A chikan's perspective doesn't matter when evaluating whether a carriage is 'chikan-friendly' or not - what matters is whether their behaviour is more likely to be tolerated. I still can't see why having women-only carriages is going to make all of the people travelling in mixed-gender carriages suddenly approve of chikans more than they did before.
    Word.

    It seems to me that the existence of the story of Train Man would indicate a sense of chivalry amongst the men of Japan--that large groups of them view the harassment of women as a bad thing, and are enamored with the concept of the nobility of standing up to such harassment. It might all be fiction, sure, but the feeling apparently exists. Maybe if the men here weren't so damned meek and submissive. I wonder why they would hesitate to help someone in need...
    Quote Originally Posted by 00Bear00 View Post
    When I read your post I suddenly feel like I am so far away from being crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ananasboat View Post
    It's festivals days like these on which I really try really hard to make up for not partying in college.
    yeah, because who needs free flowing drugs and alcohol fueling adventorous sex with taut, lithe young bodies when you could wander around a dying town in the freezing cold with a can of asahi super dry in your hand while some toothless old farmer shouts at you.

  17. #77
    Global Moderator Scrotty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    сводник
    Posts
    4,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    A quick google suggests that 4,000 of them do every year.
    wait, quick google searches add credibility?! well then, you mind if i do the same?
    Quote Originally Posted by a quick google search
    Roughly 6,000 men are arrested every year for groping or taking unsolicited inappropriate pictures
    A public poll stated that 80% of female train riders have been groped

    let's do a little math here. japan has a female poplulation of roughly 63 million. now let's be extremely generous and say that only 10% of them count as 'female train riders' (which is a completely ridiculous assumption but let's run with it). that means 5 million women have been groped. 5 million women groped, 6000 men arrested for groping. granted, the statistics are not exactly rock solid, but no matter how you look at it, no matter what numbers you use or what year you check it in, the number of arrests for groping is not even within 0.001% of the number of incidents of groping that have taken place.

    If we're going to stick to anecdotal evidence, not a single one of my Japanese female friends has been groped on public transport.
    1) do you even have any japanese female friends?
    2) are there any forms of public transport in your area?
    3) do you live in bumfuck inaka?
    4) have you asked any of them specifically?

    even some of my students have been targeted by train molesters, and they're not even from urban centers. depending on the answers to questions 1 through 4 above, i'm fairly certain you're talking squarely out of your ass.

    I bring it up because this sort of extortion exists, and the only reason it exists is because perverts DO get prosecuted in Japan, and their behaviour IS frowned upon by the rest of society.
    i would argue that if anything, bringing this up only harms your (what i am sincerely hoping is) devil's advocate stance. if men accused of train groping are seen as victims of blackmail and false accusation, what motivation do the true victims of train gropers have to speak out?

    Yes. How can you quantify a society's willingness to tolerate the sexual abuse of women?
    well, here' s a little test you can do in the comfort of your own little corner of japan! ask any comely japenese beauty if she has any concerns about riding the trains or subways in the perfectly safe public transport system of tokyo. i will 100% guarantee that she will have concerns about being groped.

    next, get a friend to ask a woman in new york or london or sydney the same thing about their public transport system. chances are their answer may be along the lines of the train being late, or getting mugged, or having a homeless guy vomit on her shoes.

    now i'm not saying that the japanese culture encourages this kind of behavior, but it does facilitate it. i'm sure i heard a japanese expression that goes along the lines of 'the japanese person waits for instruction' that was used as an explanation as to why nobody does anything when a girl is getting groped in front of them - everybody is waiting for someone else to do something before they act so they know what it is they're supposed to be doing.

    Find me one that will.
    well, in case you missed it, that particular instruction was rhetorical. but if you insist that every single non-chikan commuter would take action in the presence of a train groping, then why are there women's-only carriages?

    A chikan's perspective doesn't matter when evaluating whether a carriage is 'chikan-friendly' or not
    actually, i'm pretty sure a chikan's perspective could be considered definitive when it comes to whether or not something is chikan-friendly, but whatever

    I still can't see why having women-only carriages is going to make all of the people travelling in mixed-gender carriages suddenly approve of chikans more than they did before.
    it's not, and i never said it did. non-chikans just have a rock solid excuse for inaction now, and if japanese society has taught you nothing else, surely you realize by now that ways to shift the blame are far more valuable than solutions to problems.
    look all i'm saying is if you go here and you die, it's not my fault

  18. #78
    Global Moderator Scrotty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    сводник
    Posts
    4,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by word View Post
    Is it really? I've never seen any or heard of any inappropriate behavior by teachers at my schools... which is more than I can say for the schools I taught at/attended in America. Links to actual statistics? Links to studies demonstrating an empirically observable connection between Japan's tendency to sexualize schoolchildren/family members/etcetera and actual child abuse? I just worry that so much of what gets discussed in threads like this is based on hearsay and speculation.
    so much of it is based on hearsay and speculation because hearsay and speculation end up being the only evidence of it, hence my use of the term 'hush-hush'. i believe you've asked this before, when someone was talking about the number of unreported cases of child abuse, and you asked to see some statistics on it. if it was unreported, how could it have been documented? all one can do is speculate on the spread of the problem based on the amount of times they hear about it.

    also, i can say with a decent amount of confidence that there probably is some teacher/student inappropriateness going on in your area, and it's just that you don't know about it. two years in, i would have said the exact same thing as you - there is no untoward business going on in my japan! then once the surface gets scratched it's actually really shocking and unsettling to find out how much was going on right under your nose.

    Well... yeah, I do. Links to something demonstrating otherwise?
    perhaps i should have clarified by inserting the word 'strictly' before the word 'enforced'. see my above response to taurus for an idea on the percentage of convictions vs the percentage of incidents.

    also, while looking for those figures, i came across something that indicated there were more than 100 websites for chikan communities that told the best places to do it, as well as hints/tips on how to do it undetected and evade arrest, and ways to organize groups of 4-6 chikans to surreptitiously shield the victim from view. i'm sure for every 'train man' fiction out there, there's far more websites and sources for chikans.
    look all i'm saying is if you go here and you die, it's not my fault

  19. #79
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    577

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotty View Post
    wait, quick google searches add credibility?! well then, you mind if i do the same?
    I wasn't looking for credibility - this is the internet. I was just pointing out that you are wrong to say that people don't get punished for groping women on Japanese trains.

    You might want to check out your 80% figure, by the way. If you go here:

    89% of train groping victims don't notify police: survey | The Japan Times Online

    You can see that it's not that 80% of women have been groped. It's that 80% of the 13% of women (drawn from a survey of women living in three of Japan's largest metropolitan areas) who were groped didn't report it to the police.

    The reason that survey exists is because the police were trying to encourage women to report these crimes.

    1) do you even have any japanese female friends?
    2) are there any forms of public transport in your area?
    3) do you live in bumfuck inaka?
    4) have you asked any of them specifically?
    1) Yes, lots!
    2) Yes, lots!
    3) No!
    4) Yes!

    i would argue that if anything, bringing this up only harms your (what i am sincerely hoping is) devil's advocate stance. if men accused of train groping are seen as victims of blackmail and false accusation, what motivation do the true victims of train gropers have to speak out?
    It's not a devil's advocate stance. And it's not that I'm advocating groping on trains. I'm just trying to advocate people to stop viewing Japan as this otherworldly pervert's paradise that doesn't conform to western logic and decency. It's just a place full of people like anywhere else, and as in a lot of other places with people, the issue of sexual harassment is a complicated one and not as clear cut as some people on here seem to want to think.

    (And men accused of train groping are not 'seen as victims of blackmail and false accusation'; it's that some of them ARE victims of blackmail and false accusation. Your survey further demonstrates that some men are also afraid to be accused of groping - which, I think, clearly demonstrates that all of these sentiments about the issue of groping are driven more by the way people's perceptions have been shaped by a moral panic than by actual events.)

    why are there women's-only carriages?
    To make women feel safer in light of a moral panic about an issue that has an underlying substance of truth. I guess. To go back to my original point, I don't think their existence makes non-women-only carriages any more likely to encourage pervert gropers.

    it's not, and i never said it did. non-chikans just have a rock solid excuse for inaction now, and if japanese society has taught you nothing else, surely you realize by now that ways to shift the blame are far more valuable than solutions to problems.
    This is just mental. Rock solid excuse? What? And this nonsense about 'japanese society' not being able to find solutions to problems is racist idiocy.
    Last edited by Taurus; February 9th, 2011 at 16:16.

  20. #80
    Global Moderator Scrotty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    сводник
    Posts
    4,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    I was just pointing out that you are wrong to say that people don't get punished for groping women on Japanese trains.
    yee-haw, let the hair-splittin' commence! ok, let me clarify. MOST offenders don't get punished for groping women on japanese trains.

    You might want to check out your 80% figure, by the way. If you go here:

    89% of train groping victims don't notify police: survey | The Japan Times Online

    You can see that it's not that 80% of women have been groped. It's that 80% of the 13% of women (drawn from a survey of women living in three of Japan's largest metropolitan areas) who were groped didn't report it to the police.
    glad you're researching those statistics for me. you do realize you've actually given the math i did in the previous post a better result? in that math, i was assuming that 8% of women had been groped (10% of the population use trains, 80% of them get groped). your figures give a much more damning 13% of women being groped. that leads to a much larger discrepancy between incidents and convictions!

    as i said, no matter what numbers you use, you're going to get the same result.

    The reason that survey exists is because the police were trying to encourage women to report these crimes.
    and why were police encouraging women to report the crimes?

    BECAUSE THE CRIMES GO UNREPORTED

    1) Yes, lots!
    2) Yes, lots!
    3) No!
    4) Yes!
    well, i have to insist that you're either not being entirely truthful here, or your friends are not being entirely truthful with you. try this - ask them if any of their friends have been groped.

    It's not a devil's advocate stance. And it's not that I'm advocating groping on trains. I'm just trying to advocate people to stop viewing Japan as this otherworldly pervert's paradise that doesn't conform to western logic and decency.
    denying that the problem exists is as bad as supporting it. you're no better than the faceless commuters who witness the incidents and do nothing about them.

    as i said before, japan in and of itself is not specifically to blame for the problem. other parts of the world (such as india) have a high incidence of train groping too, and there are certain aspects of the culture (that don't even necessarily overlap with the aspects of japanese culture!) in those parts of the world which facilitate it there.

    To make women feel safer in light of a moral panic about an issue that has an underlying substance of truth. I guess.
    'an underlying substance of truth'. 'a moral panic'. seriously what the fuck is this shit. let me show you something:
    why are the women's only carriages?
    to stop women getting groped.


    To go back to my original point, I don't think their existence makes non-women-only carriages any more likely to encourage pervert gropers.
    pretty sure i've already covered this. let's try it another way. for easier nomenclature, i'm going to refer to women's-only carriages as 'new carriages', and mixed gender carriages (from both before and after the introduction of the women's-only carriages) as 'normal carriages'.
    i'm saying: women were getting groped on normal carriages. new carriages were introduced. women don't get groped on new carriages. women still get groped on normal carriages. if a woman travels on a normal carriage and gets groped, it is very easy to point out that she wouldn't have been groped on the new carriage.

    nowhere in the above have i indicated that post-new-carriage-introduction normal carriages are an active source of support for the crime, so stop bringing that up please.

    This is just mental. Rock solid excuse? What?
    hmm, perhaps 'justification' would have been a better word. let's try an analogy. if you eat fugu and the poison kills you, the culprit is certainly the licensed chef who prepared the fish for you. and yet, how many people do you think would say 'if he'd have eaten tuna instead of fugu, that never would have happened'.

    besides, what do you call this:
    some men are also afraid to be accused of groping
    other than an excuse for inaction?

    And this nonsense about 'japanese society' not being able to find solutions to problems is racist idiocy.
    waldroon was right! i AM a racist! holy shit!
    it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission
    RACIST IDIOCY
    the nail that sticks out asks to be pounded
    RACIST IDIOCY
    japanese television is mostly about people eating things
    RACIST IDIOCY
    look all i'm saying is if you go here and you die, it's not my fault

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •