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Thread: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post

    More often than not you memorize a word in context, gradually expand the viable patterns for it through exposure and training, then you have a mastery of the language. In the Japanese case, because everything is translated, they really have no entries for the English in their head as separate words, but connections to their primary language. Which really explains the recall problems most of em have and the production problems because they don't have indexes for English usage, they have cross maps to their Japanese.
    Great point.

    When you learned these things as a kid, you probably would've encountered something simple first like, I think the book is cool, then in school you would've been exposed to consider/find and it would reduce to I find the book cool, because you would've seen that those verbs have object positions that take a thing and a state. The other benefit is you would be able to easily identify the concrete object and the stative adjective/adverb through excessive exposure to them over time, and putting them into the new form would be a "ohh, okay that works" rather than "EHH???? WAKARANAI!"
    I'm pretty sure nobody ever taught me English. I just read a lot.

  2. #22
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    I'm pretty sure nobody ever taught me English. I just read a lot.
    Exactly, but exposure + familiarity with word meaning == learning + expansion. For instance, I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings at 7 years old. I understood probably about 40% of the story, with much of the English being WAY beyond me. But exposure to more patterns like that, and a greater lexicon expanded my existing English, and allowed me to process new things in logical and predictable ways.

    It's also the same way I learned French.

    It's also the same way I am learning Japanese.

    The difference with the last two is there are patterns and vocabulary I currently don't fully understand even if I can use them, and having grammar explanations and meaning explanations like the textbook give processing context to new things that I otherwise would not know through pure exposure and input processing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    OK I misunderstood what you were saying.

    Man I wish I had the patience and curiosity that I did when I was just starting reading. Now I try to read something in Japanese and after an hour of struggling I'm like fuck it video games.

  4. #24
    Pimpin wenches aint easy BeckyJones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    This week I had to correct a teacher and thus a whole class that you can not use.
    looks like with a adjective
    the teacher literally wrote:
    名詞 looks like 形容詞 and
    He looks like happy

    on the blackboard. After stopping him and correctly telling him that looks like can only be used to describe two nouns, he and the students fully understood... however, they decided to learn it anyways because it will be on the prefectural test.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny View Post
    His dying breath will not be how sorry he is to leave his wife or children, but it will be saved to insult Jiggit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Hello song, what do you like sports? and fruit basket. The holy trinity of English education.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeckyJones View Post
    This week I had to correct a teacher and thus a whole class that you can not use.
    looks like with a adjective
    the teacher literally wrote:
    名詞 looks like 形容詞 and
    He looks like happy

    on the blackboard. After stopping him and correctly telling him that looks like can only be used to describe two nouns, he and the students fully understood... however, they decided to learn it anyways because it will be on the prefectural test.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)

  6. #26

    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post
    @uzateq, it is correct in that it is over used. As a grammatical rule, it is incorrect because think does not take objects of ANY kind. It takes fully formed complement phrases. If you say "I think it" it must refer to a whole thought, because it does not have two object positions. In most languages (including japanese) verbs like think cannot be used like "I think apple" or "I think apple sweet". Replacement tests are key here, because both of those should be wrong to you, meaning that "I think it unlikely" is a regularized exception.
    Thanks for the reply. I'd done ~1.5 hours worth of research to get to a point where I'd convinced myself it was correct but what you said makes more sense. One question though... Can't 'think' be stative? You said earlier "a non-stative verb like think". I'm knackered so maybe I'm just being stupid.

    @ everyone: One thing we must always keep in mind when teaching English to a non-native speaker is to teach the regular patterns as regular, and exceptions as exceptions. They must be clearly two different things. Shoe-horning an exception into a regularized rule confuses student production and stabilization of core feature of the language, and then if they are destabilized they really have no base to improve/grow from.
    I really like this. I made the mistake of doing just that in my first couple of lessons then realised they needed a real solid base to grasp onto, not just rules that came with a thousand exceptions.

  7. #27
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeckyJones View Post
    This week I had to correct a teacher and thus a whole class that you can not use.
    looks like with a adjective
    the teacher literally wrote:
    名詞 looks like 形容詞 and
    He looks like happy

    on the blackboard. After stopping him and correctly telling him that looks like can only be used to describe two nouns, he and the students fully understood... however, they decided to learn it anyways because it will be on the prefectural test.
    So the teacher completely misunderstood the grammar points of

    noun + looks like + noun (Sam looks like a pile of shit)
    and
    noun + looks + adj (Sam looks shitty)

    as one point together? WTF. Tell him he has mistakenly merged to separate points about look together and that he's an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  8. #28
    Pimpin wenches aint easy BeckyJones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post
    So the teacher completely misunderstood the grammar points of

    noun + looks like + noun (Sam looks like a pile of shit)
    and
    noun + looks + adj (Sam looks shitty)

    as one point together? WTF. Tell him he has mistakenly merged to separate points about look together and that he's an idiot.
    That is the thing. I DID, just using nicer examples. My explanation was understood by the teacher, and by the students. However, he said that they need to know it that way "he looks like happy" because that is directly on the prefectural test.

    The good students know the difference between looks, and looks like and its usage. The bad students probably couldn't count to potato so I guess it doesn't really matter, since you know... it IS on the test .
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny View Post
    His dying breath will not be how sorry he is to leave his wife or children, but it will be saved to insult Jiggit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Hello song, what do you like sports? and fruit basket. The holy trinity of English education.

  9. #29
    Senior Member mothy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeckyJones View Post
    That is the thing. I DID, just using nicer examples. My explanation was understood by the teacher, and by the students. However, he said that they need to know it that way "he looks like happy" because that is directly on the prefectural test.

    The good students know the difference between looks, and looks like and its usage. The bad students probably couldn't count to potato so I guess it doesn't really matter, since you know... it IS on the test .
    I'm sceptical that's actually on the prefectural test. I see mistakes on prefectural tests sometimes, but that level of mistake would be quite out of the ordinary.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    I agree that seems like a particularly glaring mistake. It may be that the teacher doesn't really understand and is just trying to get the noisy foreigner to shut up and let him teach English in Japanese without having to worry about pesky things like it how it's actually used.

  11. #31
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeckyJones View Post
    That is the thing. I DID, just using nicer examples. My explanation was understood by the teacher, and by the students. However, he said that they need to know it that way "he looks like happy" because that is directly on the prefectural test.

    The good students know the difference between looks, and looks like and its usage. The bad students probably couldn't count to potato so I guess it doesn't really matter, since you know... it IS on the test .
    You know, when stuff like that happens I've gotten to the point where I just say "No, it can't be, and if it is, prove it." While I will admit there were some pretty big mistakes on my prefectual test this year, none of them were in the problem sections, just the reading texts which obviously had been pared down for the students benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  12. #32
    Pimpin wenches aint easy BeckyJones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    probably right. but nothing I can do about it really, other than what I did.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny View Post
    His dying breath will not be how sorry he is to leave his wife or children, but it will be saved to insult Jiggit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Hello song, what do you like sports? and fruit basket. The holy trinity of English education.

  13. #33
    Senior Member happytime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeckyJones View Post
    they need to know it that way "he looks like happy" because that is directly on the prefectural test.
    Good God. I want to believe you guys when you say it's just an excuse, but... You never know.


    Also, ah, d-d-d-d-d-don't hate, me, but, uh, we Americans call it prescriptivism. Just, uh, putting in my two cents.
    Last edited by happytime; June 20th, 2014 at 17:25.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by happytime View Post
    Good God. I want to believe you guys when you say it's just an excuse, but... You never know.


    Also, ah, d-d-d-d-d-don't hate, me, but, uh, we Americans call it prescriptivism. Just, uh, putting in my two cents.
    Isn't prescriptivism just saying that colloquially understood language is correct? Like "I ain't got no love," is grammatically incorrect, but it is understood as "no one lives me." If it is "incorrect" but still provides for understanding then it's fine linguistically. This example is not used in colloquial speech, and is not recognized by many native English speakers, therefore wrong in the eyes of prescriptivism, right?

    Maybe. I'm not totally sure.

  15. #35
    Senior Member happytime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ananasboat View Post
    Isn't prescriptivism just saying that colloquially understood language is correct? Like "I ain't got no love," is grammatically incorrect, but it is understood as "no one lives me." If it is "incorrect" but still provides for understanding then it's fine linguistically. This example is not used in colloquial speech, and is not recognized by many native English speakers, therefore wrong in the eyes of prescriptivism, right?

    Maybe. I'm not totally sure.
    I was just referring to when someone wrote "proscriptivism."

  16. #36

    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Ahh alright. Yeah spelling mistakes isn't prescriptivism.

  17. #37
    Senior Member kenkennif's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihatefall View Post
    This is the type of thread 2chan should be translating
    Where's the link to the ITIL translated stuff over there? I've never used any of them chan sites before, I don't really understand all of that Internets stuff outside of Facebook and TheMeatGuy...

  18. #38
    Senior Member kenkennif's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    Oh, here was a good one - In the school hall there were two big new posters up on the wall last week - One had the title written largely in the center of the page in English "LEADERSHIP" along with all the qualities of how to be a good leader written in Japanese, the other had the same style with the big title "FOLLOWERSHIP" and all the instructions of how to be a good follower....

    Only in Japan!

  19. #39
    Last edited by uthinkimlost?; June 23rd, 2014 at 13:31.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    But what if we reverse the polarity of the quantum string theory? According to uncertainty principle there are infinite worlds out there, so it stands to reason schrodinger's cat is alive in one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo87;
    U da real mvp.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Japenglish: Shit that's wrong in textbooks.

    eh... Proscriptivism is the style of grammar and linguistics that proscribes (makes rules) for every grammatical possibility. It's competitor is Descriptivism, in which they make statements about how the grammar is understood. For the most part, Proscriptivism grew out of 18th and 19th Century Georgian and Victorian English grammaticians who starts farting up English with BS pseudo-Latin and pseudo-Greek rules and spellings to make things 'make sense.' If there is one thing the giant clusterfuck of the English language doesn't do, its 'make sense.'

    For the most part, the only problem's I've come across is 'I come to school by (bike).' - In common usage, 'I ride my bike to school.' is more popular (same for 'I ride the bus to school,' but not so much for 'I come to school by car.' - which would probably be 'I'm driven to school.' (Which they'd learn two years later(ish).)

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