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Thread: Kanji

  1. #41

    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by BifCarbet View Post
    The problem for me isn't breaking down kanji or using radicals to group them, or anything like that. I can't get behind turning everything into English and making stories for radicals. I used WaniKani for about 6 minutes and said, nah, eff this, so I could be missing out big time. I couldn't get past the "These are the fins! They aren't like feet, so they're not people, but picture a fish!" Also I think it very well could have been useful for me in the past, but it's too late. I don't want my comprehension to be contingent on weird stories for symbol construction and reasoning them out in English. I probably sound either pretentious or curmudgeonly, but it seems really misguided to me.

    But... if it helps, then rock the hell on. I hope everyone finds the method that works best for them.
    Right, you have missed the point then. The mnemonic is just getting it into your head initially. When I did Heisig (dunno about wanikani) it was amazing because I could feel the connections being made as I progressed. I'd be looking at a complex kanji thinking "OK so this is made up of the kanji for x and y... Oh! I learned the kanji for x and y already, neat". Also when you do Heisig you need to make your own stories anyway.

    The whole point is that eventually you'll just look at a kanji and know its meaning and reading instantly. Initially you'll know it by the mnemonic, then you'll just know it by looking at its parts, then the general pattern, then as its English definition and (if you do the second book) by it's most common readings.

    Which is why people who've only looked at the start of it have no idea. It doesn't sound pretentious, it sounds ignorant. I've never seen someone who finished Heisig say it wasn't a good method, but I do see a lot of naysayers who've barely touched it. My friend, who got N1 from nothing in under 3 years, swears by it, meanwhile I've met Japanese majors, studying with more traditional methods, who've lived here for 2 years and are at N2 or even N3. In part it depends on the person, and of course no one can make you do it, but there are a lot of reasons why it just makes more sense than the alternatives.

  2. #42
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Gonna agree with jiggit on this one.

    If the nmeonic doesn't work for ya, ignore em. I do. I just use the presentation structure to facilitate my learning. When something doesn't stick, then I use the nmeonic to get it into my head, but it only exists there for a few repetitions until it is replaced by meaning/pronunciation recall.

    Just spending a few minutes with this type of srs (or any srs) will NEVER seem productive because the power is in its long term goals, not short term gains.

    Everyone I know who has ever succeed at Japanese has used a solid srs, and the best all used a method similar to Heisig. The depressing ones are the ones who tried to learn it the same way they learned shit in school through rote memorization or mass cramming and they have never been as successful. 4 years later I haven't taken a jlpt, but I regularly school the "I have jlpt n2 or n1" people on knowledge and use ability. Many of em are jealous of my ability to naturally communicate, as it's all in my head in a non declarative way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post
    The depressing ones are the ones who tried to learn it the same way they learned shit in school through rote memorization or mass cramming and they have never been as successful.
    If you want a reminder of how effective this method is, go have a chat with a 3rd grade HS kid in English.

  4. #44
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    If you want a reminder of how effective this method is, go have a chat with a 3rd grade HS kid in English.
    That's a special type of fail though
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  5. #45
    read half. react. BifCarbet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    I'm sure that's all true. I'm not missing the point. I just did it differently and learned well. I was only saying I was immediately turned off, not that it's ineffective and that you guys shouldn't use it.
    車庫 B1F

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  7. #47
    read half. react. BifCarbet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Hope the day turns around for ya.
    車庫 B1F

  8. #48
    Perpetually confused. johnny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    If you're a CIR, I'm willing to accept that you did a good job learning Kanji.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ini View Post
    Teach them something new?? Are you mad? All you do in Japan is rehash the same stuff over and over for 15 years. Hello song, what do you like sports? and fruit basket. The holy trinity of English education.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny View Post
    If you're a CIR, I'm willing to accept that you did a good job learning Kanji.
    You might be surprised by the J-go standards.
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  10. #50
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    Default Re: Kanji

    For me, I think SRS systems are great. I've used readthekanji before and it was fun and I liked it.

    I think learning something you already know from a different perspective can be weird, hence if you have an established knowledge of hiragana, WaniKani's way might put you off. But if a beginner comes to it for the first time, the approach might very well stick.

    I learnt kana differently too, without the mnemonics. I am not a fan of WaniKani's way to teach kana; I don't know how they do with regular kanji.
    Last edited by x_stei; April 30th, 2015 at 14:20. Reason: that thing called grammar
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by x_stei View Post
    For me, I think SRS systems are great. I've used readthekanji before and it was fun and I liked it.

    I think learning something you already know from a different perspective can be weird, hence if you have an established knowledge of hiragana, WaniKani's way might put you off. But if a beginner comes to it for the first time, the approach might very well stick.

    I learnt kana differently too, without the mnemonics. I am not a fan of WaniKani's way to teach kana; I don't know how they do with regular kanji.
    I didn't even realize wanikani taught kana.... must be a separate thing. You don't really need nmenoics for kana to be honest. They are relatively simple, and they should be learned through rote memorization... mainly because you should be able to write them without thinking. Kanji on the other hand.... well that's the difference between writing the alphabet and spelling a word, backwards :P.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  12. #52
    PIKITIS!!!!! x_stei's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Wait. Nevermind. I think I might've mistakened the radicals as kana. -_-"

    It's late, I need sleep. Forgive me...!
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  13. #53
    Crustacean Sensation Ebi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by x_stei View Post
    For me, I think SRS systems are great. I've used readthekanji before and it was fun and I liked it.

    I think learning something you already know from a different perspective can be weird, hence if you have an established knowledge of hiragana, WaniKani's way might put you off. But if a beginner comes to it for the first time, the approach might very well stick.

    I learnt kana differently too, without the mnemonics. I am not a fan of WaniKani's way to teach kana; I don't know how they do with regular kanji.
    This was my issue with WaniKani too. I like SRS systems and they definitely work for me, but repeating things I already know with new mnemonics put me off so I never really pursued it further. I used Memrise for a while and made my own mnemonics for unfamiliar vocab and that worked better. I think it would have been good if used a system like WaniKani from the start, but at this point I think I'd rather stick with what I've already got.

  14. #54
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebi View Post
    This was my issue with WaniKani too. I like SRS systems and they definitely work for me, but repeating things I already know with new mnemonics put me off so I never really pursued it further. I used Memrise for a while and made my own mnemonics for unfamiliar vocab and that worked better. I think it would have been good if used a system like WaniKani from the start, but at this point I think I'd rather stick with what I've already got.
    I thought that too, but in the end I found it much easier just to ignore the wanikani radical explanations for shit I already knew (which was most of it) and just use it for the drip feed of content. I also use it with an override so I make absolutely NO effort to remember their radical names and just build my own head explanations for the kanji.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  15. #55
    Member taysukidesu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    I'm not saying all kana needs mnemonics, but for the more difficult ones to remember, using a visual mnemonic really helped everyone in my classes. Obviously kana need more drilling than kanji would theoretically use.

  16. #56
    Crustacean Sensation Ebi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post
    I thought that too, but in the end I found it much easier just to ignore the wanikani radical explanations for shit I already knew (which was most of it) and just use it for the drip feed of content. I also use it with an override so I make absolutely NO effort to remember their radical names and just build my own head explanations for the kanji.
    Well I might give it another go. Can you choose what level you want to start at? Because I'd rather not go back to square one since I've studied up to N1 kanji. (Not saying I'm amazingly proficient, but I do recognize the meanings of most of them still even if the readings escape me.)

  17. #57

    Default Re: Kanji

    From what I've heard you have to pay after a certain level. I've never used wanikani but I know people who have, still I'm not sure.

  18. #58
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanji

    Unfortunately there is no way to skip levels. That being said, if you use he override script to ensure you always advance your kanji you can get a lot of benefit out of the vocab while constantly pushing the 9 day level up window.

    I had simile feelings when I started but using that allowed me to power through the basics and get to a point where I only really knew about 50% per level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Kanji

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebi View Post
    This was my issue with WaniKani too. I like SRS systems and they definitely work for me, but repeating things I already know with new mnemonics put me off so I never really pursued it further. I used Memrise for a while and made my own mnemonics for unfamiliar vocab and that worked better. I think it would have been good if used a system like WaniKani from the start, but at this point I think I'd rather stick with what I've already got.
    I just started using memrise and I love it for vocab. It's actually also really helping me with kanji recognition, too. I think what's taking some getting used to with SRS stuff is that like everyone's saying, it's not instantaneous, it kind of plants a seed in the back of your mind at first, rather than drilling it like textbook memorization tends to do (and then later forgetting it)... I actually use their mneumonics on memrise for the ones I can't remember, and it's been pretty helpful. Some of them are pretty ridiculous/borderline vulgar but I mean now I'll never forget certain words... ('komu' = to go into = picture of a pornstar saying 'komu inside'........... nice)

    Wanikani is pretty similar to Heisig, right? I have a pdf of Heisig on my laptop that I tried to use briefly in August when I was just starting my Elementary Japanese class and it was way too overwhelming at the time lol. I think I'll give it another go now that I'm a little more familiar with Kanji.

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