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Thread: Gizmos grammar thread.

  1. #61
    Crustacean Sensation Ebi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    There are a few instances when it absolutely does matter though, and that's usually when you can see how they're different.

    For example:

    A: "Hey, can you help me?"
    B: "Sure, I'll help you." ("Sure, I'm going to help you." sounds weird.)

    A: "Are you going to the party with me?" vs
    "Will you go to the party with me?"
    (The meaning is quite different.)

    A: "Are you going to the party?"
    B: "I won't go." vs. "I'm not going."
    (Won't implies you're intentionally missing the party.)

    They're used the same most of the time, but "will" often implies volition. Also, I feel like we tend to favor "going to" when asking questions, unless it's worded as a favor.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Any good rules/methods to teach my 3rd grade for distinguishing infinitive vs gerund? It seems to come up a lot on their practice tests and as far as I can tell they're basically guessing every time.

  3. #63
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Nope,

    Because most of the places where they are making their mistakes are issues with it being restricted to a NP rather than a VP. It's a failure of memorisation on their part, combined with their fucking textbooks teaching them infinitive clauses as structurally normal (Who the fuck says "to eat vegetables is important" anyways...)

    For instance:

    I like [to run in the forest] Is C series complement construction (that I run in the forest)
    I like [running in the forest] is a NP series construction (like apple)

    It is important [running in the forest], doesn't work as important is an adjective and there is no NP conjunction there,
    whereas
    It is important [to run in the forest], works because it's a subject dropped C series complement (that people run)

    I make chiho [put her skirt down], is okay because it's functionally an order [Make is not an SVOC, it's an SVOV [SV(sv)] structure technically]
    I make chiho [to put her skirt down], doesn't work because this is not a C series complement construction
    I make chiho [putting her skirt down], also doesn't work because this is not an NP series construction either.
    Chiho was made [to put her skirt down] by me, works fine because now is a proper C series complement structure again... yay fucked up verbs.

    Basically, the students need to know SVOO/SVOC, and that Os must be NP structures (therefor gerunds), but they were never taught that correctly as Japanese textbooks don't use the SVOO and SVOC terms correctly. Talk is SVO because [about shit] they see as an object. Same with Tell, I told chiho that she should put her skirt down, That.... is all a C series complement in linguistics, but they call it a fucking object.

    TLDR: Nope, Good luck!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    I'm not trying to be an ass, but some of the terminology you used had literally zero results on google. I appreciate the effort though.

  5. #65
    Billy Big Bollocks Ini's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Great men of action never mind on occasion being ridiculous; in a sense it is part of their job.

  6. #66
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Ini, that's a great explanation but students who learn deep grammar crap in high school look at vague shit like that and go "whatever".

    @jiggit I imagine most of it isn't google able as I'm remembering syntactic theory while doing like five other things. Basically there are structural order a beyond frequency (which ini linked) to explain this shit but they're based in chompskian x bar theory.

    Edit: Jesus christ the drunk spelling mistakes.
    Last edited by Gizmotech; December 15th, 2015 at 10:48.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  7. #67
    Billy Big Bollocks Ini's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    you lost me at structural otter.
    ?

    Does anyone else go weak at the knees when gizmo talks about grammar? You have no idea what he is talking about but you cant help but be impressed by it.
    Great men of action never mind on occasion being ridiculous; in a sense it is part of their job.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    It doesn't help that every JTE ever seems to ignore the rules for "enjoy" and "want." When they're teaching gerunds and infinitives. So the practice tests they make have problems that read like "Tom enjoys to swim," or "We enjoy to listen to music," along side others like "He wants running in the park," or worse, "He wants to running in the park."

  9. #69

  10. #70

    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    His A+ reacharounds, obviously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    But what if we reverse the polarity of the quantum string theory? According to uncertainty principle there are infinite worlds out there, so it stands to reason schrodinger's cat is alive in one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo87;
    U da real mvp.

  11. #71
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    Apparently Ini has never seen a university entrance test. Why is this man being employed to train ALTs?
    Well he's not wrong, it's just I knew where your problem was (being knee deep in it myself), and it wasn't with the simple infinitive/gerund problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post
    Well he's not wrong
    ?

    I get your frustrations, certainly, I'm just wondering if there's any way I can help my wonderful little angels not fall into some common pitfalls these universities like to set for them. Any common misconceptions or errors you'd fix if given the chance? I have 4 lessons a week until the tests but the JTE has restricted it to exam focused stuff from now on.

  13. #73
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    ?

    I get your frustrations, certainly, I'm just wondering if there's any way I can help my wonderful little angels not fall into some common pitfalls these universities like to set for them. Any common misconceptions or errors you'd fix if given the chance? I have 4 lessons a week until the tests but the JTE has restricted it to exam focused stuff from now on.
    I'd probably just wack out their vocab book and make a list of words that take to exclusively vs ing and make em practice those sets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  14. #74

  15. #75
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    Thanks Daisempai.
    The other thing you could do with them is recognizing parts of speech, as they know most of the rules well enough but are shit at identifying adjectives vs nouns vs verbs eh
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post
    The other thing you could do with them is recognizing parts of speech, as they know most of the rules well enough but are shit at identifying adjectives vs nouns vs verbs eh
    I've had low success rate with that before, any methods you'd suggest?

  17. #77
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    If I had to do it I would probably start with prepositions, then verbs, followed by contrastively identifying adjectives vs nouns. Combine it with some dictation where you read out the sentence to the students rather than giving them a work sheet, then ask them in steps to find the parts of the sentence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post
    I'd probably just wack out.
    I did that and it landed me in the Kocho's office!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggit View Post
    But what if we reverse the polarity of the quantum string theory? According to uncertainty principle there are infinite worlds out there, so it stands to reason schrodinger's cat is alive in one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo87;
    U da real mvp.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotech View Post
    If I had to do it I would probably start with prepositions, then verbs, followed by contrastively identifying adjectives vs nouns. Combine it with some dictation where you read out the sentence to the students rather than giving them a work sheet, then ask them in steps to find the parts of the sentence.
    I'd just like to know why JTEs are so adverse to using the noun/verb/proposition/conjunction etc (名詞・動詞・前置詞・接続詞 and I forget the others in Japanese)in their classes. They're using these terms to describe Japanese, but can't use them to describe English? No wonder students don't know how to describe grammar when they only know a couple set phrases instead of basic grammar structure. Heck, the first time one of my classes hit "名詞" it was to talk about "代名詞." To which a couple students had the reaction, "There are nouns in Engish?"

  20. #80
    Gizmoduck - blatherskite Gizmotech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gizmos grammar thread.

    I blame junior highs for not introducing some of these basic concepts early on... and then I blame senior highs for assuming junior highs did their job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytrix View Post
    Organising anything with ALTs is like herding cats on catnip

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonath View Post
    We Jeeperneez are express all emotion through money. Wedding is happy money. Funeral is sad money. Izakaya is friendship money. Girl-bar is almost-sex money. But babby-borning is bery happy money, as no babby in Japan. All babby is special so we is givings much money as presento for babby.

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