need advice

[Isola]

Okay, regarding the west vs east, point taken Isola, thanks!

Why can't the principal take the bad students out of the class temporarily? Is this an actual rule?

I feel like I'm feeding a troll. Yes, it is an actual rule. Students cannot be removed from the classroom, as this impedes on their right to an education (high school excluded because it is not compulsory).

[Jiggit]

Singling out one particular student, especially as the foreigner, is an excellent way to make the one student who is doing well even more of an outcast. In Japan this means they're putting the group (the class) beneath them and are therefore a selfish and arrogant suckup. Pretty much every Japanese teacher I've asked has been adamantly against my using individual praise against any one student, and I tend to agree with them. The only time it really works is when you're in a group of great kids who are all trying to do well and get on with each other. If you're having problems with a class then there's good chance that there's a lot of internal tension among the students. Bullying can be quite different here, and it's usually about stamping down those who make themselves distinct.

Frankly if a classroom management tactic bears the risk of any student getting death threats in their locker then I would ere on the side of caution.

[Virgil]

Frankly if a classroom management tactic bears the risk of any student getting death threats in their locker then I would ere on the side of caution.

Too real.

[Ini]

[mothy]

it's the author's advice, one whose book has gotten 4.3/5 (based on 29 reviews) and who "is the best selling author of eighteen teaching and parenting books", so I would imagine she has useful advice to give regarding teaching in the classroom.

This has to be the lamest appeal to authority I've ever seen.

[Zolrak 22]

This has to be the lamest appeal to authority I've ever seen.

29 reviews, come on!

[5100]

Hmmm. Also bestselling authors on parenting and home schooling, with way more than 29 reviews...

[Ini]

play nice, ladies

[elmaldito]

I feel like I'm feeding a troll. Yes, it is an actual rule.

I am not being a troll but asking a genuine question, so now I know the answer, thanks.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...ren-in-schools

Students cannot be removed from the classroom, as this impedes on their right to an education (high school excluded because it is not compulsory).

When the student disrupts the class to such a degree that his/her behaviour affects others and the teacher is unable to cope is a reason to remove the student and look at ways of trying to see how this student's behaviour can be dealt with.

This has to be the lamest appeal to authority I've ever seen.

I'm making the point that this author is experienced in behaviour management. As stated earlier I was wrong to mention this in the Japanese context, but the fact that the author has written 18 books, is a best-seller, provides training for schools in behaviour issues etc shows that she does know something about ways of managing classrooms (taking aside the Japanese context).

[elmaldito]

I feel like I'm feeding a troll. Yes, it is an actual rule. Students cannot be removed from the classroom, as this impedes on their right to an education (high school excluded because it is not compulsory).

"Why time-out may be necessary
Time-out is fundamentally the use of directed time away from the group. It is,
essentially, cool-off time, when a child is isolated from his peers. All children
want to belong to the group. With time-out what is essentially being communicated
to the disruptive student is that the student’s behaviour is so disturbing to
the teacher and her peers that she cannot any longer be accepted as part of the
class group at that time. The student is thus directed away from her immediate
peers in the room, or in a place away from the classroom. Time-out, then, has
a logical/related basis, as well as a basis in utility. It’s all very well for some
academics (who don’t teach) to overplay the case of an individual student’s
rights (i.e. removal from class time); however the rights of all members of the
classroom, including the teacher’s right to teach, need to be taken into account
when disruptive behaviour is persistent or unsafe. Whenever a student significantly disrupts
another student’s rights; or significantly
disrupts the teacher’s right to teach and to manage the group; or behaves
unsafely or dangerously, then staged time-out is an appropriate, necessary and
fair consequence."

[Bill Rogers - You know the fair rule]

[mothy]

I think you're missing the most important point that in Japan this advice is worthless.

[Virgil]

I've seen students removed from class before. To have their asses chewed while the entire class stopped and watched silently.

[Ebi]

Yeah, the sad fact is that even if you have a kid who is noisy, disruptive, and sometimes violent, the teacher can't force him (or her) to leave the classroom.

In fact, the teachers would probably get in trouble if they didn't do their damdest to get that kid to keep coming to school since it reflects poorly on them to have dropouts/non-attendees.

I think this changes once you're past JHS since school is no longer compulsory, but up until then sending kids out of class is not an option, which makes it very difficult to handle a kid who knows they can't be punished in any meaningful way.

Sadly, a lot of them are probably just trying to get attention since they don't get it at home. And some others clearly have special needs, but the school can't force them to get help if the parents refuse.

[Ebi]

@Virgil: But the teacher was with them, right? It seems backwards, but they'll get in trouble for letting one kid run amuck outside of the class alone, but they can leave the rest of the students unmonitored while they do it.

[Ini]

All children want to belong to the group.

That blatantly isn't true.

[Virgil]

@Virgil: But the teacher was with them, right? It seems backwards, but they'll get in trouble for letting one kid run amuck outside of the class alone, but they can leave the rest of the students unmonitored while they do it.

Oh yeah the teacher was with them chewing them out at the top of their voice. There was no way we could continue class until it was over. Then they came back in and acted rightfully humiliated.

[Ananasboat]

Huh. I've been staying out of this conversation for a while, but I'm bored so what the hell.

I've had a kid who was removed from class plenty of times. He's a huge bully, and the teachers eventually adopted a "I don't care what you do, but I'm also not going to take your shit any more" attitude with him. He learned nothing in 6th grade, and spent a good deal of time in the hallway. His parents never made a stink because they're pachinko addicts.

At my middle school their favorite tactic is throwing kids out into the hallway to do work. First off, they're often just doing worksheets anyway, but at least this way they're expected to do them in a place where they can't distract the other students. The other benefit, one teacher gleefully told me, was that in the winter it's f*king cold in the hallways for lack of insulation and actually acts as a good form of deterrent.

So, IME kids can and do get thrown out of class. It's not as common as it is in the US, but it's not like the Kid Who's Throwing Erasers's education is more important than the kid who's getting hit with the eraser. There's a line that they can cross. When they become a severe distraction to the rest of the class it's perfectly fine to shove them out into the cold hallway.

[Isola]

So, IME kids can and do get thrown out of class. It's not as common as it is in the US, but it's not like the Kid Who's Throwing Erasers's education is more important than the kid who's getting hit with the eraser. There's a line that they can cross. When they become a severe distraction to the rest of the class it's perfectly fine to shove them out into the cold hallway.

I think Japan is changing, and some schools are finally realizing that the old way of doing things doesn't work anymore, and that's great. More of that please. But my school is definitely stuck in the old ways, and there is no line that can't be crossed. Hitting the girl next to you so hard that she falls out of her chair? You can stay in class. Shoving the ALT across the room into a desk? You can stay in class. Breaking a teacher's bone and sending them to the hospital... no, wait, there is a line, you're suspended, but you can come back to school in a month.

[Jiggit]

Schools do stuff that they aren't supposed to all the time, but legally Ananas' school is in the wrong. Though it may not count if they're right next to the classroom. I've sent kids to sit outside (HS) once or twice, but most of them keep acting up and trying to get attention even then. That's not really "Time Out". You need somewhere to send them away that distinctly separates them from everyone else.

[Frap]

I think Japan is changing, and some schools are finally realizing that the old way of doing things doesn't work anymore, and that's great. More of that please. But my school is definitely stuck in the old ways, and there is no line that can't be crossed. Hitting the girl next to you so hard that she falls out of her chair? You can stay in class. Shoving the ALT across the room into a desk? You can stay in class. Breaking a teacher's bone and sending them to the hospital... no, wait, there is a line, you're suspended, but you can come back to school in a month.

Sounds like that student needs a hug.